webwiz
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Risks
Feb 17, 2015 17:12:12 GMT
Post by webwiz on Feb 17, 2015 17:12:12 GMT
I wonder if we could all pool our experience and imagination to list, and attempt to quantify, the risks in p2p lending?
Here is my first stab. Feel free to add or amend.
1) Platform scam. So many platforms are starting up, all having the characteristic that initially more people send them money than ask for it, that it is inevitable that sooner or later there will be a complete scam where the platform operators cream off the loot. Risk - high if just chasing the highest rates, but lower if sticking to FCA approved platforms with a track record.
2) Platform collapse due to incompetence or bad luck. Risk - almost certain to occur sooner or later. Diversifying across platforms will reduce risk. may not involve total loss of capital.
3) Individual loan default. Risk - certain. Can be contained by diversification. Some platforms have provision funds, but it is arguable how effective these are. If loan is asset backed may not result in total loss of capital.
4) Locked in to an uncompetitive rate. Risk - very low at present, at least for loans up to 3 years. In general, a moderate risk like any other fixed rate investment.
Weighing it all up, and assuming maximum diversification within the target rate band, what do you think is the long term net return from these rate bands after losses. My guess is shown:
Rate offered Likely net return <4% <4% (almost same as offered) 4-6% 4-6% (maybe 1% less than offered) 6-8% 4-6% (maybe 2% less than offered) 8-10% 6-8% (maybe 2% less than offered overall but not evenly spread across investors, some losing capital) 10%+ 8%+ (maybe 2% less than offered overall but not evenly spread across investors, many losing capital)
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Risks
Feb 18, 2015 15:00:54 GMT
Post by hugoarchover on Feb 18, 2015 15:00:54 GMT
Hi webwizGood points! 1) Good point and FCA approved platforms with a history are the best way to avoid this though we don’t want to knock out innovators in this market. All UK platforms need to be FCA approved 2) If the platforms are FCA regulated they must have contingency plans in place to keep the loan book running 3) Both company and individuals are at risk. Of course we would point out that ArchOver are the first to maintain a security (lending against the Accounts Receivable) at 125% of the loan amount and insure the full value as well. 4) I think the next three years will see interest maintained low – that’s just my personal view
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 12:11:34 GMT
Post by ablrateandy on Feb 20, 2015 12:11:34 GMT
Individual loan scam - where a loan has been passed through by a platform and due diligence has not been correctly performed.
Valuation Risk (secured assets) - where the valuation is incorrect or overly optimistic.
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mikes1531
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 13:47:25 GMT
Post by mikes1531 on Feb 20, 2015 13:47:25 GMT
Valuation Risk (secured assets) - where the valuation is incorrect or overly optimistic. This is a big risk particularly with security which is unique -- artwork? expensive property? -- where getting the right price depends very much on finding the right buyer. What about the risk of being tied into a P2P transaction well beyond the nominal maturity date because the borrower has defaulted and the liquidation of the security is a long, drawn-out, process?
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 14:49:24 GMT
Post by reeknralf on Feb 20, 2015 14:49:24 GMT
Government interference.
Like any uncertainty this cuts both ways, but I predict
1. Nanny State will feel the need to protect us from ourselves. 2. Tax declaration will not continue to be left to the discretion of the investor.
Unlike many of the previous points, bigger platforms which deal with the wider public are more likely to attract big brother's attention.
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 20:46:08 GMT
Post by mrclondon on Feb 20, 2015 20:46:08 GMT
Government interference. Like any uncertainty this cuts both ways, but I predict 1. Nanny State will feel the need to protect us from ourselves. 2. Tax declaration will not continue to be left to the discretion of the investor. Unlike many of the previous points, bigger platforms which deal with the wider public are more likely to attract big brother's attention. One of the bigger platforms has stated that they believe FCA's priorities will be exactly the opposite - to focus initially on the smaller platforms without the inhouse experience across all relevant disciplines. Personally I would start in the middle, the platforms with few staff but non-trivial loan books (e.g. SS, FS, Fk, Abl ) Tax deduction at source is inevitable, but providing the R85 regime is extended or similiar implemented should be welcomed as an ethical tax avoidance measure.
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 20:53:21 GMT
Post by bracknellboy on Feb 20, 2015 20:53:21 GMT
Government interference. Like any uncertainty this cuts both ways, but I predict ... 2. Tax declaration will not continue to be left to the discretion of the investor. ... Unless I'm misunderstanding the point, that is only 'a risk' if one is currently operating on the basis of not declaring as required by law and therefore factoring tax evasion into ones calculation of risk/return.
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bugs4me
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Feb 20, 2015 22:20:02 GMT
Post by bugs4me on Feb 20, 2015 22:20:02 GMT
Government interference. Like any uncertainty this cuts both ways, but I predict 1. Nanny State will feel the need to protect us from ourselves. 2. Tax declaration will not continue to be left to the discretion of the investor. Unlike many of the previous points, bigger platforms which deal with the wider public are more likely to attract big brother's attention. Tax deduction at source is inevitable, but providing the R85 regime is extended or similiar implemented should be welcomed as an ethical tax avoidance measure. I'm not convinced the R85 will be extended. HMRC would prefer individuals to jump through a few hoops or barbed wire to get the tax back. That's of course provided they remember and can be bothered.
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bugs4me
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Risks
Feb 20, 2015 22:25:31 GMT
Post by bugs4me on Feb 20, 2015 22:25:31 GMT
Valuation Risk (secured assets) - where the valuation is incorrect or overly optimistic. This is a big risk particularly with security which is unique -- artwork? expensive property? -- where getting the right price depends very much on finding the right buyer. What about the risk of being tied into a P2P transaction well beyond the nominal maturity date because the borrower has defaulted and the liquidation of the security is a long, drawn-out, process? And I cannot see a way round this when every penny counts when the asset is disposed of. This is more of a problem when the LTV is too marginal when or if things go wrong. I've reassessed my holdings and decided 70% LTV is too high especially when applied against some property loans with the squeeze gradually being made on the returns on offer. As more P2P's enter the BL market then those rates will go lower - so not for me.
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 20, 2015 23:44:00 GMT
Security Breach on the platform - unauthorised withdrawal being made in your name or loan parts or cash being transferred out of your account by a malicious hacker.
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webwiz
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Risks
Feb 22, 2015 18:08:05 GMT
Post by webwiz on Feb 22, 2015 18:08:05 GMT
Thanks everyone - all good points. But nobody has attempted the estimation of returns net of losses. In my initial post I made some guesses based on the nominal interest rate offered, but of course there will be a variation with platform competence and luck. Logically one should invest in the platform with the highest net return, even if that involved large losses, but I see that most of the p2p money goes to the platforms with the lowest risks. So maybe my guesses were too optimistic about loss levels. After reading all the other risks you have all come up with I think that's probably the case.
With the riskier, high interest platforms like SS it is probably not possible to give an average net return figure which is of much use because the variation will be too great. Some lucky people will get 12% and some unlucky people will lose a chunk of capital. I would advise anyone on that platform to diversify across as many loans as possible to protect against the most likely of the many risks - individual loan default. This will mean naturally that they will greatly increase the chances of having some losses, so it is perhaps a dubious protection but it is the one normally recommended.
In my revised net return table I will assume that maximum diversification has been achieved, and I split the returns into 3 groups, unlucky, average and lucky.
Rate offered Likely net return Return if lucky Return if unlucky <4% <4% (almost same as offered) <4% (almost same as offered) 0% 4-6% 4-6% (maybe 1% less than offered) 5-6% -5% 6-8% 4-6% (maybe 2% less than offered) 7-8% -10% 8-10% 5-7% (maybe 3% less than offered 9-10% -20% 10%+ 6%+ (maybe 4% less than offered 10+% -30%
Please give your opinions!
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Risks
Feb 22, 2015 19:23:20 GMT
Post by ablrateandy on Feb 22, 2015 19:23:20 GMT
IMHO.... Interest rates only correlate to risk in a perfect market, which is far from what P2P or P2B is. If you had just one platform in a perfect market, then : Rate of Risk Band A should equal Rate of Risk Band B minus Defaults in Risk Band B Rate of Risk Band A should equal Rate of Risk Band C minus Defaults in Risk Band C The only exception is that you should get fractionally more of a return to cover your expenses of administrating those defaults. In my opinion, any platform which states that you will get a better return from investing in Risk Band D because the level of defaults < difference in interest rates is not doing their credit work correctly. In fact, they are probably guessing. Possibly guessing with the help of a computer model.... but still guessing. At the moment, rates are getting pushed lower because there are more buyers of loans than there are sellers of loans, which means that interest rates on those platforms fall. My advice would simply be to make sure that you think about what value you put on the risk, not the value that someone else (or even "the market" puts on it).
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Feb 22, 2015 19:44:09 GMT
Thanks everyone - all good points. But nobody has attempted the estimation of returns net of losses. In my initial post I made some guesses based on the nominal interest rate offered, but of course there will be a variation with platform competence and luck. Logically one should invest in the platform with the highest net return, even if that involved large losses, but I see that most of the p2p money goes to the platforms with the lowest risks. So maybe my guesses were too optimistic about loss levels. After reading all the other risks you have all come up with I think that's probably the case. With the riskier, high interest platforms like SS it is probably not possible to give an average net return figure which is of much use because the variation will be too great. Some lucky people will get 12% and some unlucky people will lose a chunk of capital. I would advise anyone on that platform to diversify across as many loans as possible to protect against the most likely of the many risks - individual loan default. This will mean naturally that they will greatly increase the chances of having some losses, so it is perhaps a dubious protection but it is the one normally recommended. It is far too early to say. Only one company (zopa) has been around long enough to cover an economic cycle. Most platforms haven't been here for 3 years, never mind the 5 year length of their loans. Who knows what will happen when rates start climbing over the next few years. And don't forget tax. The higher yielding, but riskier loans are not very attractive for taxpayers, and higher rate taxpayers especially so. I don't know what the money averaged tax rate is for P2P lenders. This makes provision funds more attractive to taxpayers. Possibly in 10 years we will know what you are asking now, but even then a risky platform might have got lucky or vice versa. There is also a high chance that the market will change significantly. In the next few years there will be at least one election, possibly more. Pension money might be withdrawn and placed into P2P. If ISAs are introduced there might be a significant increase in money arriving. Regulations might change. Companies might list and change their strategy. Strong competitors will arrive, Hargreaves Lansdown have announced this, it is easy to think that others might too, how about Virgin Money, Tesco, Coop, it is easy to think of a few other names who might be credible. If a company has a few hundred loans, talking about default rates of 1% seems statistically meaningless to me.
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Post by meledor on Feb 22, 2015 20:24:05 GMT
Some interesting comments.
The opening post makes the assumption that low return is low risk; I'm not sure that is necessarily so. It certainly wasn't the case in the lead up to the credit crunch in 2008 when we suddenly discovered that banks had been mispricing risk in a low yield environment for a number of years. My concern is that lenders for unsecured loans on lower return platforms could be doing the same thing. I agree with bigfoot12 - we are not going to know for sure until we've been through a complete economic cycle.
However it does seem odd that secured or asset-backed lending often attracts higher rates than unsecured (or only 'secured' with a personal guarantee), which is another reason for thinking that there is an element of mispricing happening at the moment.
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adrianc
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Risks
Feb 22, 2015 20:54:42 GMT
Post by adrianc on Feb 22, 2015 20:54:42 GMT
In fact, they are probably guessing. Possibly guessing with the help of a computer model.... but still guessing. Isn't that what EVERY kind of risk calculation is?
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