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Risks
Feb 22, 2015 21:05:41 GMT
Post by ablrateandy on Feb 22, 2015 21:05:41 GMT
haha. Yes. Risk is to a large extent a guess about how a borrower will behave in the future, although the longer your track history and the longer your data, the more likely you are to "guess" well. As someone above pointed out, Zopa has been going longer than most and so probably has the best data, but I still don't believe that even they have seen a real "economic cycle", because they haven't seen an increase in interest rates yet, which will be the true test for most platforms... but they may not come for years! (No disrespect to Zopa ) . As observed, secured vs unsecured is totally mispriced and that is largely because of the demand/supply imbalance.
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mikes1531
Member of DD Central
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Risks
Feb 23, 2015 0:27:14 GMT
Post by mikes1531 on Feb 23, 2015 0:27:14 GMT
Logically one should invest in the platform with the highest net return, even if that involved large losses, but I see that most of the p2p money goes to the platforms with the lowest risks. This is logical, but ignores one very significant factor -- psychology! IMHO, most investors are risk-averse, and will opt for lower-risk investments even it if means their expected return will be lower. Some people sleep better at night if they feel their risk is minimal, and this is worth something to them, even if it means their return is sub-optimal. With the riskier, high interest platforms like SS it is probably not possible to give an average net return figure which is of much use because the variation will be too great. Some lucky people will get 12% and some unlucky people will lose a chunk of capital. I would advise anyone on that platform to diversify across as many loans as possible to protect against the most likely of the many risks - individual loan default. This advice would be correct if SS were set up as is typical for P2P/P2B. At the moment, however, it is not. SS investors do not lend directly to borrowers. They give their money to SS, and SS lend to the borrowers. (AIUI, this is how Wellesley work as well.) SS have given an undertaking -- though it isn't in their Ts&Cs -- that they will stand behind their loans with their own resources. This was easy to feel comfortable with back in SS's early days when they were making relatively small boat loans but it is less so now and, as a result of pressure from investors, SS are considering a change in these arrangements. In the current situation, however, it would seem that a failure of one loan could affect all SS investors, not just those who have nominally invested in that particular loan. As a result, some SS investors -- and this includes me -- feel that there's little advantage in having a diversified loan portfolio at SS. It's also not particularly easy to achieve since SS have only about 25 loans in total at the moment, and the only way to diversify is if another investor wishes to reduce their holding.
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webwiz
Posts: 1,133
Likes: 210
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Risks
Feb 23, 2015 18:10:28 GMT
Post by webwiz on Feb 23, 2015 18:10:28 GMT
Logically one should invest in the platform with the highest net return, even if that involved large losses, but I see that most of the p2p money goes to the platforms with the lowest risks. This is logical, but ignores one very significant factor -- psychology! IMHO, most investors are risk-averse, and will opt for lower-risk investments even it if means their expected return will be lower. Some people sleep better at night if they feel their risk is minimal, and this is worth something to them, even if it means their return is sub-optimal. With the riskier, high interest platforms like SS it is probably not possible to give an average net return figure which is of much use because the variation will be too great. Some lucky people will get 12% and some unlucky people will lose a chunk of capital. I would advise anyone on that platform to diversify across as many loans as possible to protect against the most likely of the many risks - individual loan default. This advice would be correct if SS were set up as is typical for P2P/P2B. At the moment, however, it is not. SS investors do not lend directly to borrowers. They give their money to SS, and SS lend to the borrowers. (AIUI, this is how Wellesley work as well.) SS have given an undertaking -- though it isn't in their Ts&Cs -- that they will stand behind their loans with their own resources. This was easy to feel comfortable with back in SS's early days when they were making relatively small boat loans but it is less so now and, as a result of pressure from investors, SS are considering a change in these arrangements. In the current situation, however, it would seem that a failure of one loan could affect all SS investors, not just those who have nominally invested in that particular loan. As a result, some SS investors -- and this includes me -- feel that there's little advantage in having a diversified loan portfolio at SS. It's also not particularly easy to achieve since SS have only about 25 loans in total at the moment, and the only way to diversify is if another investor wishes to reduce their holding. Good points. However I have managed to diversify my investment with SS over 13 loans and will continue to diversify it more as new loans come up without increasing capital using the amazing SM. All part loans I have put up so far have sold immediately. So am I wasting my time? Superficially yes, as you say. However SS is so small compared to it's loan book that a substantial loan failure might see the end of them. In that scenario I don't know how the Receivers/liquidators would view matters but I would be happier being diversified across the loan book. Also as you say their legal obligation to make up a shortfall is doubtful even if they have the resources to do so.
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shimself
Member of DD Central
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Risks
Feb 23, 2015 19:30:27 GMT
Post by shimself on Feb 23, 2015 19:30:27 GMT
...They give their money to SS, and SS lend to the borrowers. (AIUI, this is how Wellesley work as well..... Wellesley now have an arrangement where we do in fact have a small share of all of their loans, the borrower has a direct debt to us. (SS haven't yet achieved the same, Lendinvest isn't vey clear)
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shimself
Member of DD Central
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Risks
Feb 23, 2015 19:31:25 GMT
Post by shimself on Feb 23, 2015 19:31:25 GMT
Does anyone know where to find the list of FCA registered p2p companies?
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 23, 2015 23:40:02 GMT
Interesting and very relevant points from samford71 . As I see it (and the reason that I would NEVER lend unsecured through a platform for more than three months) is the risk of an adverse change in the personal or business circumstances of the borrower. Even in larger companies you can have a catastrophic change in circumstances - one recent example is Phones4U where their bonds went from trading at something like 103 to pretty much zero in a few days. In this case it was because a major contract didn't get renewed but that can happen in P2B or P2P as well. The longer your maturity, the greater the risk of getting "stuck" in a loan and exposed to economic conditions that could hamper repayment. Where there is security, the business itself becomes of limited relevance as long as you can get to the asset if the business is failing. And as observed above, something is wrong with the way that P2P and P2B price secured loans vs unsecured loans. That misprice is purely a function of demand, in my opinion. One example of bond issuance would be Volkswagen, where their unsecured bonds would trade at around LIBOR+30 but their secured bonds would be around LIBOR+10. Bank bonds are the same, with secured bonds trading a lot tighter than unsecured (in nearly all cases). Hmmm.... I wonder if FC will let me borrow a couple of million unsecured and invest it in long-dated secured P2B loans?
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Risks
Feb 24, 2015 12:18:44 GMT
Post by easteregg on Feb 24, 2015 12:18:44 GMT
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Risks
Feb 24, 2015 15:06:39 GMT
Post by davee39 on Feb 24, 2015 15:06:39 GMT
Interesting and very relevant points from samford71 . As I see it (and the reason that I would NEVER lend unsecured through a platform for more than three months) is the risk of an adverse change in the personal or business circumstances of the borrower. Even in larger companies you can have a catastrophic change in circumstances - one recent example is Phones4U where their bonds went from trading at something like 103 to pretty much zero in a few days. In this case it was because a major contract didn't get renewed but that can happen in P2B or P2P as well. The longer your maturity, the greater the risk of getting "stuck" in a loan and exposed to economic conditions that could hamper repayment. Where there is security, the business itself becomes of limited relevance as long as you can get to the asset if the business is failing. And as observed above, something is wrong with the way that P2P and P2B price secured loans vs unsecured loans. That misprice is purely a function of demand, in my opinion. One example of bond issuance would be Volkswagen, where their unsecured bonds would trade at around LIBOR+30 but their secured bonds would be around LIBOR+10. Bank bonds are the same, with secured bonds trading a lot tighter than unsecured (in nearly all cases). Hmmm.... I wonder if FC will let me borrow a couple of million unsecured and invest it in long-dated secured P2B loans? You are quite correct, but... Some of the asset backed platforms offer a small number of high value asset backed loans. It is impossible to diversify across several loans so the asset provides the protection. FC is taking money from unsophisticated lenders dazzled by relatively high rates and mesmerized by the excitement of the auction. The large throughput of loans makes it easy to diversify into many different loans and accept that losses are inevitable, this is calculated as part of the return calculation before every manual bid. The bond example you quote relates to a small difference over a very low rate. I actually use a limited time exposure method with FC where I reduce my exposure to a loan progressively over 3 to 6 months (C loans go entirely before the 4th payment, A+ loans are allowed a little longer).
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Post by ablrateandy on Feb 24, 2015 16:33:35 GMT
davee39 "The bond example you quote relates to a small difference over a very low rate." Not quite sure what you mean here Agree that the model of some platforms is based on a herd mentality... Maybe ablrate should incorporate some kind of Space Invaders style process where you have to shoot the yield that you need? That would make it more interesting to investors. You are the second person today who has listed the excitement of auctions as being a crucial factor!
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