bob76
Posts: 103
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Post by bob76 on Mar 22, 2015 6:57:35 GMT
FC does have a few loans with asset security. They have some property loans now, with 1st charge against the property. Typically, loan over 12 months, with rate around 8-9%, and 0.5% cashback (giving therefore a decent minimum interest rate of 8.5%).
I would be careful investing £5K with Assetz, if you need the money back quickly, as a few loans are almost impossible to sell once purchased, as there is no availability to discount parts, and already a large number of parts available for purchase. I have had 2 loans to sell for about 5 weeks now, and nothing has sold.
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Post by batchoy on Mar 22, 2015 7:48:23 GMT
Hi all,
Your thoughts please;
I have 5k maturing early April from Wellesley.
Not going to re-invest there as I felt 'uncomfortable' when they left the P2PFA.
Was going to dabble in Finding Circle but you lot put me off that idea with your thread posts.
So, I fancy asset backed.....which platforms should I consider ? Personally I wouldn't get overly worried about Wellesley leaving the P2PFA, from what I have gleaned from what reports there have been the departure was due to Wellesey wanting to raise equity through their own platform which is against the club rules. Given the way Wellesley handle the sale of their mini-bonds I have no issue with what they did as P2PFA membership was clearly a hindrance to their business plans. I do however have several issues with the P2PFA particularly over the way they are attempting to standardise the language used by the P2P industry in a totally different way to the rest if the finance industry. In normal parlance a default occurs the moment a borrower breaches the terms of the loan agreement i.e. a day late in making a payment and the loan is in default (though typically there is a grace period of up to a week) and potentially incurring interest at default rate, following default a loan goes into recovery where either payments get back on track, or action is taken to recover the funds if the funds are not recoverable the the loan becomes lost. In P2PFA speak a loan is not officially in default (and cannot be reported as such by P2PFA members) until 120 days of the loan terms being breached have elapsed. You can hide an awful lot of bad debt with a 4 month qualifying period particularly when moving into new market sectors and give lenders a really false sense of security. Remember the P2PFA is a body that claims to represent the industry, it is not a regulatory body and membership is not compulsory businesses are free to leave if they disagree with the way the P2PFA is representing them without in any way reducing the security of their business.
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Post by elljay on Mar 22, 2015 8:26:26 GMT
Interesting discussion. For me I would have said a loan is "late" immediately it misses a payment. At some stage after that if no payments are made it becomes a "default". Do the P2PFA not have a "late" stage before a "default"?
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Post by batchoy on Mar 22, 2015 8:46:19 GMT
Interesting discussion. For me I would have said a loan is "late" immediately it misses a payment. At some stage after that if no payments are made it becomes a "default". Do the P2PFA not have a "late" stage before a "default"? My understanding is that P2PFA for reporting default rates the 120 day rule applies hence why you see terms like 'Non-performing loans' on FK which to the non-P2PFA world means loans which have defaulted either on payment or some other covenant.
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Post by elljay on Mar 22, 2015 9:00:19 GMT
Yup, the definitions are on the P2PFA site here. I'm not sure I'd call a loan that was one day late in "default", but I agree 120 days seems like a long time and 45 days to become "Non-Performing" also seems excessive. Maybe samridlerp2pfa would comment if they're still around?
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Post by batchoy on Mar 22, 2015 9:26:07 GMT
Yup, the definitions are on the P2PFA site here. I'm not sure I'd call a loan that was one day late in "default", but I agree 120 days seems like a long time and 45 days to become "Non-Performing" also seems excessive. Maybe samridlerp2pfa would comment if they're still around? And it makes my point clearly, the P2PFA are attempting to redefine standard industry terms with the result that people end up talking a cross purposes and P2PFA members are able to hide bad loans and lending strategies for significant periods of time. I guess that if AC joined the P2PFA they wouldn't be able to charge default interest anymore as according to the P2PFA the loans would not be in default, merely non-performing. With regard to this issue of when a loan defaults, it is the moment the borrower breaches any of the terms of the loan contract and any of the covenants so if the contract says the payments have to be received on the 15th of the month and they aren't received before midnight on the 15th then technically the loan is in default, though most lending institutions have a grace period just to cover for issues beyond the control of the borrower. But it does not just have to be payments, with a loan that has debentures over Stock and WIP there may be a covenant that stipulates a monthly report on their value, if the borrower fails to supply this even though the payment has been made they are still in default.
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Post by elljay on Mar 22, 2015 9:41:17 GMT
samridlerp2pfa hasn't logged in for a while so I've sent her a PM asking her to join the discussion.
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bob76
Posts: 103
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Post by bob76 on Sept 6, 2015 7:13:57 GMT
in respect of an ATR 42 on lease to a South American government owned airline. Good luck in recovering that asset if they can't repay the loan... People seem to ignore the point of asset-backed loans: it's to be able to recover/sell the asset(s) used as guarantee!
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Post by webbski9 on Sept 6, 2015 7:30:06 GMT
For pure money lending eMoney are difficult to beat. They have a provision fund and a very active Secondary Market. Asset backed platforms worth considering are, in my opinion, Ablrate, MoneyThing, Unbolted and for those with a Euro connection / assets, Mintos and Twino.
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Post by ablrateandy on Sept 6, 2015 7:32:07 GMT
Aircraft are comprehensively covered by international treaty for recovery and the operator would struggle to get parts if they ran off with it because we would inform the manufacturer. They'd all lose all ability to lease aircraft from anyone. On top of that, we hold a de registration certificate which means that if they stopped paying, no aviation authority would allow it to operate.
The thing about asset backed lending is to know your asset class, client, valuation and recovery possibility. The guy behind Phoenix has done over 400 aircraft leases and only had to recover aircraft twice. In both cases the aircraft was recovered and re-leased in under three months at a higher rate. Incidentally, if you tried to re-possess a business asset or property in an English court it would take a lot longer than three months.
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webwiz
Posts: 1,133
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Post by webwiz on Sept 6, 2015 7:39:36 GMT
Just about every platform has been mentioned. The truth is that if we knew the answer to your question we would all be in the best platform. If you had more money I would suggest diversifying over several platforms and over different loans on each platform. Because of the high interest rates paid you could stand the loss on a small number of bad loans and still be ahead. With only £5k to invest I think it all depends on your general financial situation and your appetite for risk. It seems common sense that the higher the rate the higher the risk, but paradoxically some of the highest rates are paid on property asset backed loans where there seem to be little risk apart from fraud.
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Post by oldnick on Sept 6, 2015 7:51:08 GMT
So, cautious, did you make a decision that you're prepared to share with us?
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bob76
Posts: 103
Likes: 22
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Post by bob76 on Sept 6, 2015 12:14:43 GMT
if you tried to re-possess a business asset or property in an English court it would take a lot longer than three months. I would surely trust a lot more the recovery of an asset based in the UK, and under English law, than in some remote part of the world.
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Post by ablrateandy on Sept 6, 2015 13:32:39 GMT
Since the setting of the sun on the British Empire, a surprising number of native communities have succeeded in establishing excellent legal systems. Phoenix tends to pop its aircraft in such jurisdictions.
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Investor
Member of DD Central
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Post by Investor on Sept 6, 2015 17:47:15 GMT
in respect of an ATR 42 on lease to a South American government owned airline. Good luck in recovering that asset if they can't repay the loan... People seem to ignore the point of asset-backed loans: it's to be able to recover/sell the asset(s) used as guarantee! bob76, you may find the below interesting reading in the international aircraft leasing convention. www.milbank.com/images/content/9/1/918/Capetown_Convention_Gewirtz.pdf
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