registerme
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Post by registerme on May 26, 2015 20:54:33 GMT
So I was out for a drink tonight, with a friend of mine who runs a small business. A month or so ago I mentioned to him my new/re-found interest in P2P and this, after being knocked back by his bank, lead him to approach FC for a loan (is that the right terminology? perhaps "host" a loan is better?). Needless to say he forgot to put me down as a referrer :/. There's two aspects of interest to me here. The first is that he has given me some insight into the process that prospective borrowers go through. I thought that might be of wider interest, and when he's given me the details through a non-alcohol based medium I will report back (I am assuming here that there is nothing technically secret about this). The second is one of forum etiquette. It's not covered by the rules (I've checked). Could I in theory "promote" this loan? Should I recuse myself from discussing it at all? If I do should I make my personal relationship clear? Should I go so far as to not invest in it at all (it actually breaks one of my rules in the "sniff test" thread but....) simply because I know the person? I've self-reported this post to bring mod eyes to bear, but I'd also be interested in hearing the thoughts of others . I can't be the first person to have ended up in this situation......... RM
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blender
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Post by blender on May 26, 2015 22:22:50 GMT
I really cannot see the problem you wish the mods to consider. Maybe they can. Looking forward to the reported borrower experience.
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Post by bracknellboy on May 27, 2015 7:54:35 GMT
Not a formal admin response as yet, just my initial thoughts.
In THEORY promoting the loan on here by an individual could be viewed as in breach of "The forum may not be used by individuals to solicit loans or investments, or to advertise goods or services."
However I think this would fall into a different category and not really what was intended by this rule. Namely promotion of an existing loan application on a p2p platform.
Personally experience says that forum members welcome dialogue with a borrower. I would suggest that rather than you promoting the loan here, that the greatest benefit would be for your friend to register and have a dialogue on the board if they wish to promote the loan after listing. This would enable direct dialogue. That said, FCs Q&As are also there for that purpose.
Reference making personal relationship known in your case. Etiquette says absolutely. I suspect that if you started singing the praises of a loan application with no obvious reason to do so you might quickly get 'spotted' by the crowd, which would be a worse outcome anyway.
Investing or not on your own account: That's your call, not something anyone else can help with.
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blender
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Post by blender on May 27, 2015 9:06:20 GMT
Bracknell Boy's response seems sensible and cautious. However, it would not be good to be over cautious in interpreting the rules or we could lose some value in the forum. A key function is to discuss the merits or demerits of loans - without identifying the borrower - and as a lender I would like to be able to do that freely without worrying about the rules. The question is really whether the person posting has an interest in the loan, and if so whether that interest is declared. I do not see any problem with the Borrower engaging in a discussion about his/her application on this forum as long as it is clear who the poster is - while remaining unidentified of course. When it come to Reigisterme, he/she seems to have no interest in the loan, apart from a friendship with the borrower, and that has been declared, and so I do not see what RM should not give his opinions on the quality of the loan and the borrower - which is what we do all the time. In fact you could say that a forumite who has already bid on a loan has more of an interest in it that RM has - perhaps wanting others to help fill the loan, or wanting others to keep out so as to preserve a high rate. It would be rather difficult if we had to consider those sort of indirect interests when we comment on a loan. When I commented recently on a post by an industry participant, in the business of giving paid advice to lenders and with a clear interest in generating business through this forum, the mods advised - rightly- that this was ok if the interest was clearly known. It would be strange if those same rules did not allow a regular lender/user to post comments about a loan because he had a drink with the borrower in a pub.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on May 27, 2015 9:15:29 GMT
Actually even 'don't identify the borrower here' is clearly (IMO) not applicable if the =borrower= opens an account and says 'hey, I'm the borrower of loan XYZ at Flimsy Custard'. Of course Flimsy Custard's T&Cs might prevent that (I'm imagining they might try!), but I don't see why the forum would be compromised.
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blender
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Post by blender on May 27, 2015 9:42:21 GMT
Actually even 'don't identify the borrower here' is clearly (IMO) not applicable if the =borrower= opens an account and says 'hey, I'm the borrower of loan XYZ at Flimsy Custard'. Of course Flimsy Custard's T&Cs might prevent that (I'm imagining they might try!), but I don't see why the forum would be compromised. Identifying the Borrower (the actual human or corporate person) is against the forum rules aiui. Nothing to stop a forum user with a name such as Borrower01 declaring that he/she posts as the borrower/director on a certain loan application number.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on May 27, 2015 10:25:40 GMT
Thanks all for the responses . I guess my starting point is that I used to work in the securities industry, and were the equivalent to have happened there I would effectively have had to have been "wall crossed" because I had access to non-public information. As a result I would have been prohibited in trading instruments associated with that company, or investing in the company on a personal account, for a period of time. I realise that the comparison isn't perfect, but it did make me think about p2p cases where a potential investor has, similarly, access to non-public information, or equivalently has a relationship with a potential borrower that is undeclared. But on a forum like this it would be nigh on impossible to enforce that, hence my reference to the forum rules (and "etiquette"). I also take blender's point about not "over regulating", My use of the word "promote" was innappropriate. What I was trying to get at was, for instance, a situation where I could say "look, I know the person, and I know the business, and it's throwing off cash far more healthily than might be apparent from the filed Companies House accounts". Or, conversely, "the accounts paint a prettier picture than the reality" (not that my friendship would last in such a situation . I think that the prospective borrower is unlikely to sign up here. In the general case one of the attractions of a facility like FC is precisely the disintermediation between a borrower and hoardes of prospective lenders. However, if the loan goes live, and if it attracts a bunch of questions / scrutiny, I might suggest it to him.... This might also be different across different platforms. As for the loan in question, I'll wait until it goes live before making any decisions about bidding on it / investing in it.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 27, 2015 13:34:02 GMT
In the general case one of the attractions of a facility like FC is precisely the disintermediation between a borrower and hoardes of prospective lenders. However, if the loan goes live, and if it attracts a bunch of questions / scrutiny, I might suggest it to him... Which brings us back to the whole raison d'etre of the FC Q&A, and the effect of unanswered questions on the end rate... As for the loan in question, I'll wait until it goes live before making any decisions about bidding on it / investing in it. Seems fair. Ignore the relationship/"insider knowledge", and view the loan on the merits as presented. You've already said it crosses one of your red lines, of course.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 3, 2015 11:19:07 GMT
So in the end it went to the whole loans market. Rated C, he borrowed £50,000 at 11.4%. I'm still waiting on the process details though....
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 3, 2015 17:30:37 GMT
So it looks like the borrower process is fairly simple:-
1. Borrower identity checks - certified copies of passport and driving license. 2. Business financial data - last three months' business bank statements, copy of full accounts year ending December 2013, copy of management accounts year ending December 2014 (P&L and Balance Sheet). 3. Business description, plus business plan. 4. Some kind of validation of a personal guarantee. 5. Lastly, an assessment by a credit team, though this is a bit of a black box. Presumably they validate the accounts data provided, look at Experian etc, and crunch the info they have through some kind of internal credit model.
And... that's it. If they do any more due diligence, it's likely to be in points 3, 4 and 5, but I suspect that getting sight of that from outside FC is going to be difficult. So all in all not hugely helpful to us.
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bloodycat
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Post by bloodycat on Jun 4, 2015 11:40:36 GMT
Given that a friend of mine got a loan, filled on the whole loan market. I'm not sure I would trust the rigour of their assesments too much. I helped him out working for him for 6 months on one of his previous doomed projects, I certainly wouldn't invest in him.
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