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Post by reeknralf on Jul 11, 2015 9:24:56 GMT
AFAIK, all the crowd funding property investments use SPV's to hold the property. To understand the tax consequences, I have contacted a couple of platforms and googled a bit.
It seems that rent paid and, in all likelihood, any capital appreciation are both subject to corporation tax before being distributed to shareholders. As a private individual, depending on what other income you have, you then pay income tax and/or capital gains tax on the 80p in the pound that is left over.
So for a tax payer this is tax-neutral for rent but loses 20% of any capital appreciation. A non-tax payer loses 20% of rent and 20% of capital appreciation. The platforms seemed to agree, but gave me a 'so what?'. As far as they were concerned an SPV is simple to administer, and they weren't unduly concerned if investors only got 80% of any profit.
Have I missed something, or misunderstood, because this seems crazy?
Does anyone know a platform that allows you to invest directly in shared-ownership property?
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Jul 12, 2015 19:22:02 GMT
... are both subject to corporation tax before being distributed to shareholders. As a private individual, depending on what other income you have, you then pay income tax I don't think that's right. If the dividend you receive has already had 10% tax taken from it, you pay no further tax on that money. It was taxed at source at the prevailing rate. With The House Crowd, you get a certificate to say that 10% has been deducted on your behalf which you can wave at HMRC.
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Post by reeknralf on Jul 13, 2015 15:56:29 GMT
If you earn over £35 000 you have to pay additional income tax on dividends.
Even so, if you own part of a buy-to-let directly, you simply pay your marginal rate of income tax on the rent (after deductions). If you own it through shares in an SPV, you first pay corporation tax at 20%, then you pay at least 10% in dividend witholding tax on the remainder. So irrespective of whether you are a non-tax payer, a standard rate or a higher rate tax payer, you are worse of holding a buy-to-let through a ltd co.
I can't find a definitive answer on the tax to be paid when the house is sold and the SPV wound up. It seems to depend on whether you pay a liquidator a few thousand pounds to wind it up, in which case the spv doesn't pay tax on the capital gain, although you might if you exceed the annual limit. Alternatively you pay out a one-off dividend and first the spv gets taxed on the capital gain, and potentially so do you. So again, however you wind-up the spv, and whatever you're marginal tax rate, you are considerably better off holding your share directly, rather than shares in a spv.
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Post by brianac on Mar 28, 2016 20:02:05 GMT
But can't SPV's offset mortgage interest against tax, which ISTR personal taxpayers no longer can? Also from PP's FAQ "It is not possible for more than four people to be listed on a UK land registry deed" There is more in the FAQ on deffered taxation, but I suspect you would understand that a lot better than I would propertypartner.co/howitworks/faqsBrian
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Mar 28, 2016 20:48:53 GMT
Profits holding individually could push you into higher rate tax band at 40%+
Company pays 20% CT. Then COULD distribute dividends to each share holder below upper rate tax band with no further IT to pay.
Dividend payments can be timed and the amounts altered to suit the shareholders individual taxation. Excess funds can be retained in the business and paid at a time when better suits shareholders
SPV can have as many share holders as like. So say 10 or so people could benefit, including family members such as spouse and adult children.
Additionally, several costs can be taken out to reduce profits PRIOR to taxation of CT. eg loan interest, accountancy, salaries, management costs, maintenance, etc etc. All effectively reducing profits to nil or there abouts so there is little CT to actually pay
When decide to sell, can use Entrepreneurs Relief to wind down SPV and pay 10% on profits, compared to current individual CGT rates
NOTE: Dividend rules are changing April 2016
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Post by highlandtiger on Mar 29, 2016 7:22:43 GMT
With dividends the new rules from next week will allow you to have a £5000 allowance before incurring any tax, and with capital gains you have a yearly £11.1k allowance.
With rental yields / dividends ranging between 2% and 7%, (depending on who and what property you invest in) you can invest between £70k and £250k before being hit with any tax.
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Post by reeknralf on Mar 29, 2016 8:16:04 GMT
I appreciate the rules are soon to change, and this will reduce the disadvantages of spv's relative to direct ownership. What stevio says is true of an spv you control, but few if any of these advantages apply to the spv's run by a platform, at least in as far as the platforms currently use them. The cgt threshold is indeed 11k. Similarly the dividend threshold will soon be 5k, but these only apply to the 80% that is left after 20% corporation tax has been paid. I sincerely hope that stevio is wrong that fees wipe out capital gains. It's a somewhat hollow victory, to avoid taxes by not making a capital gain on a buy to let investment. Most of the investments on PP, currently have capital gains well in excess of fees. I remain convinced that if PP et al structured these investments as market-rate (10%??) loans from us individuals to an spv, with the loans backed by a first charge over the property held, we could have all the benefits of a corporate structure whilst avoiding most or all of the corporation tax.
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Mar 29, 2016 8:41:19 GMT
I appreciate the rules are soon to change, and this will reduce the disadvantages of spv's relative to direct ownership. What stevio says is true of an spv you control, but few if any of these advantages apply to the spv's run by a platform, at least in as far as the platforms currently use them. The cgt threshold is indeed 11k. Similarly the dividend threshold will soon be 5k, but these only apply to the 80% that is left after 20% corporation tax has been paid. I sincerely hope that stevio is wrong that fees wipe out capital gains. It's a somewhat hollow victory, to avoid taxes by not making a capital gain on a buy to let investment. Most of the investments on PP, currently have capital gains well in excess of fees. I remain convinced that if PP et al structured these investments as market-rate (10%??) loans from us individuals to an spv, with the loans backed by a first charge over the property held, we could have all the benefits of a corporate structure whilst avoiding most or all of the corporation tax. Running costs to avoid CT, not CGT CGT avoided through EPR
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Post by highlandtiger on Mar 30, 2016 7:45:22 GMT
I appreciate the rules are soon to change, and this will reduce the disadvantages of spv's relative to direct ownership. What stevio says is true of an spv you control, but few if any of these advantages apply to the spv's run by a platform, at least in as far as the platforms currently use them. The cgt threshold is indeed 11k. Similarly the dividend threshold will soon be 5k, but these only apply to the 80% that is left after 20% corporation tax has been paid. I sincerely hope that stevio is wrong that fees wipe out capital gains. It's a somewhat hollow victory, to avoid taxes by not making a capital gain on a buy to let investment. Most of the investments on PP, currently have capital gains well in excess of fees. I remain convinced that if PP et al structured these investments as market-rate (10%??) loans from us individuals to an spv, with the loans backed by a first charge over the property held, we could have all the benefits of a corporate structure whilst avoiding most or all of the corporation tax. Reading what you are saying, I think that to create a company that is a crowdfunding property company crossed with a P2P loan company, just to possibly increase profits, would be an accounting and taxation nightmare, and something that would be highly risky. Let's say house prices fall, and after 5 years the property sells at a loss. No CT would be paid, however using your "loan" scenario, the SPV would have lost even more money than that due to the money spent on servicing the 10% loan. Personally, I could care less how the taxation technicals of running these property P2P companies are done. No doubt they have taxation experts much better qualified than me. I am more interested in the bottom line, which is how much am I going to get back in return. And to date I am more than happy with the returns.
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dolly
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Post by dolly on Jun 11, 2016 15:02:25 GMT
When decide to sell, can use Entrepreneurs Relief to wind down SPV and pay 10% on profits, compared to current individual CGT rates NOTE: Dividend rules are changing April 2016 Entrepreneurs Relief is a relief to individuals, not companies. I'm a liquidator, so I do see this in my day job regularly and I'm fairly certain it will not apply in most circumstances as the criteria wont be met: www.gov.uk/entrepreneurs-relief/eligibility
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Jun 11, 2016 17:30:52 GMT
When decide to sell, can use Entrepreneurs Relief to wind down SPV and pay 10% on profits, compared to current individual CGT rates NOTE: Dividend rules are changing April 2016 Entrepreneurs Relief is a relief to individuals, not companies. I'm a liquidator, so I do see this in my day job regularly and I'm fairly certain it will not apply in most circumstances as the criteria wont be met: www.gov.uk/entrepreneurs-relief/eligibilityThink you need to do some reading as your inexperience shows this has gone completely over your head...........or change jobs before anyone realizes lol
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