|
Post by Financial Thing on Nov 18, 2015 21:51:02 GMT
All signs are pointing to the US Fed raising interest rates in December. I see the UK following suite and raising rates early 2016. Wonder if this will be the first true test of P2P?
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,626
Likes: 6,438
|
Post by registerme on Nov 18, 2015 22:15:35 GMT
I suspect it's priced in already.
If it isn't, or if it really does prove to be "the first true test of P2P", then P2P doesn't deserve to continue as an asset class / way of doing business.
A fairly conventional (local G8) economic view of a US rise, followed by a UK rise (assuming it's small) would be that macro flows tend towards US / UK govvies, the search for yield sees slightly less pressure, down pressure on consumer / business spending and investment and real estate valuations, a possible rise in retail deposit rates, and downward pressure on equity markets (but god knows they're toppy as it is).
Without any substance to base my bet on, all in all I think that could be good for P2P. Rates could (should?) rise to compensate for higher rates available at "safe" banking institutions.
Interestingly I was talking to a fund managing friend of mine about the upcoming sale of Lloyds shares. She said, almost verbatim, "the industry sees them as a buy due to the expectation of higher mortgage margins".
|
|
Liz
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 1,297
|
Post by Liz on Nov 18, 2015 22:15:57 GMT
I would be more worried if they had to drop rates.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,626
Likes: 6,438
|
Post by registerme on Nov 18, 2015 22:17:25 GMT
I would be more worried if they had to drop rates. Not a lot of room for that . Negative rates would be... unorthodox (not that they are unheard of), but then again so is QE. Long term I'm far more concerned about how QE unwinds itself. I don't think anybody really understands this.....
|
|
jonah
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,031
Likes: 1,113
|
Post by jonah on Nov 19, 2015 6:01:45 GMT
I would be more worried if they had to drop rates. Not a lot of room for that . Negative rates would be... unorthodox (not that they are unheard of), but then again so is QE. Long term I'm far more concerned about how QE unwinds itself. I don't think anybody really understands this..... Will QE ever be unwound...? I can see that one being kicked further down the road for a very long time.
|
|
james
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 955
|
Post by james on Nov 19, 2015 7:54:25 GMT
Wonder if this will be the first true test of P2P? True test in what way? Some upset customers for lower rate P2P like RateSetter and to a lesser extent Zopa when people trying to sell discover how expensive it is to match higher market rates there. More trouble if current rates substantially exceed past rates and there are more widespread attempts to withdraw to relend at a higher rate and people at those discover it's expensive to do. If normal savings accounts exceed the P2P rates it'll matter more and short term lending in some monthly P2P or Wellesley might see more widespread withdrawing for this reason. But not universally, after all, they do have money inflow today at lower higher rates than are available elsewhere in P2P. Beyond that? Not so much in the way of consequences for a while. Eventually those with offset mortgages will find the mortgage offset account paying more than P2P and will withdraw to use that but I don't think there's enough of this to make a big difference. After a while those with flexible mortgages might make the same move when the rates make it worth doing. Higher rate P2P should be fine because there will still be a significant margin above bank rates and the relative change in interest rate will be lower even if rates do increase. Liquidity for older loans might evaporate on par-only secondary markets, though. I don't see a high buyer volume at old par rates when new par rates are say 2% higher and with no opportunity to discount to match the rate the result may be lock-in unless there is a sufficiently high demand or loans to mask the effect and keep the lower rates attractive on the "that's all there is to invest into" basis.
|
|
|
Post by Financial Thing on Nov 19, 2015 14:35:17 GMT
Wonder if this will be the first true test of P2P? True test in what way? Some upset customers for lower rate P2P like RateSetter and to a lesser extent Zopa when people trying to sell discover how expensive it is to match higher market rates there. More trouble if current rates substantially exceed past rates and there are more widespread attempts to withdraw to relend at a higher rate and people at those discover it's expensive to do. If normal savings accounts exceed the P2P rates it'll matter more and short term liending in some monthly P2P or Wellesley might see more widespread withdrawing for this reason. But not universally, after all, they do have money inflow today at lower rates than are available elsewhere in P2P. Beyond that? Not so much in the way of consequences for a while. Eventually those with offset mortgages will find the mortgage offset account paying more than P2P and will withdraw to use that but I don't think there's enough of this to make a big difference. After a while those with flexible mortgages might make the same move when the rates make it worth doing. Higher rate P2P should be fine because there will still be a significant margin above bank rates and the relative change in interest rate will be lower even if rates do increase. Liquidity for older loans might evaporate on par-only secondary markets, though. I don't see a high buyer volume at old par rates when new par rates are say 2% higher and with no opportunity to discount to match the rate the result may be lock-in unless there is a sufficiently high demand or loans to mask the effect and keep the lower rates attractive on the "that's all there is to invest into" basis. Tested if savings rate ever creep towards the "safer" P2P options, or if many people try heading for the exits at once.
|
|
jimbob
Member of DD Central
Posts: 317
Likes: 74
|
Post by jimbob on Nov 19, 2015 15:19:02 GMT
Hmm, my minimum needed P2P zero loss return rate is 3.0%.
I suppose everyone will be different. (HR taxpayers on offsets may well be a touch higher, whereas cash rich, low income pensioners mortgage free may well just need anything above 0%)
A 1% rise would see me cashing out of Club Lloyds, not Ratesetter though.
Wouldn't rates on Ratesetter/Zopa and the other low risk; low reward p2p Cos head up with any BoE rise though ?
|
|
trevor
Member of DD Central
Posts: 557
Likes: 381
|
Post by trevor on Nov 19, 2015 16:09:57 GMT
I don't see a UK interest rate rise until late 2016 or early 2017. Therefore a small rise in US rates will have little impact in P2P in the UK
|
|
|
Post by Financial Thing on Nov 19, 2015 19:58:35 GMT
I don't see a UK interest rate rise until late 2016 or early 2017. Therefore a small rise in US rates will have little impact in P2P in the UK We don't know how a rate rise in the US would affect the UK's P2P market, but I doubt the UK gov. would wait a full year to change rates after the US raised rates. The US and UK rates have run in very close proximity since 2009
|
|
|
Post by Financial Thing on Nov 19, 2015 19:59:25 GMT
A 1% rise would see me cashing out of Club Lloyds, not Ratesetter though. How come?
|
|
|
Post by ablrateandy on Nov 20, 2015 9:31:08 GMT
I tend to agree with Financial Thing - the BoE will track the Fed with very little lag, primarily to defend the currency.
|
|
pikestaff
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,189
Likes: 1,546
|
Post by pikestaff on Nov 20, 2015 9:54:25 GMT
I tend to agree with Financial Thing - the BoE will track the Fed with very little lag, primarily to defend the currency. Up to a point. A modest decline in sterling would probably be welcomed at the moment. But in any event rises will be small and should be priced into expectations already. I think the downward pressure on p2p rates when we have p2p ISAs will be the bigger story.
|
|
|
Post by Financial Thing on Nov 20, 2015 13:22:11 GMT
I tend to agree with Financial Thing - the BoE will track the Fed with very little lag, primarily to defend the currency. Up to a point. A modest decline in sterling would probably be welcomed at the moment. But in any event rises will be small and should be priced into expectations already. I think the downward pressure on p2p rates when we have p2p ISAs will be the bigger story. Some of these P2P companies seem like they're flying by the seat of their pants so I doubt they are pricing anything in much further than the current day. I see the ISA's as being a double edged sword. The sharper side being too much money, too few loans. The sharp side, more public attention brought to P2P leading to more loans. Only time will tell. Somehow I can't see old Ted & Mildred fiddling with the bidding sites like RS or REBS or with the complicated sites like AC or TC. Plus as I understand, you can't spread your ISA around so you have to put all your dough into one platform? I think that will stop some of the influx of cash. What worries me more are companies like InvestUp who will provide a basket of platforms for people to put their money into, making P2P less complicated for the average folk.
|
|
|
Post by p2plender on Nov 20, 2015 14:46:50 GMT
I tend to agree with Financial Thing - the BoE will track the Fed with very little lag, primarily to defend the currency. Really? In the currency war and race to the bottom it is a token gesture move by the fed just to show electricity is still feeding the life support. The huge 1/4 percent move if it really does happen will see US rates at an enormous 1/2 percent and in line with the UK. It's hilarious watching the 'taper tantrum' play out. What a state of affairs the central bankers have put us in. PS when is Carney's innings due to end as I think he's looking at ''retiring not out''...
|
|