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Post by pete101 on Jan 11, 2016 17:19:31 GMT
This loan request is an A+. The three previous open loans to this borrower are D. The latest D loan has the same financial info as the A+ request (as far as I can see). Can anyone provide any info that will enable me to understand how the loan rating can change so radically in such a short period?
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metoo
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18870
Jan 11, 2016 17:31:52 GMT
Post by metoo on Jan 11, 2016 17:31:52 GMT
This loan request is an A+. The three previous open loans to this borrower are D. The latest D loan has the same financial info as the A+ request (as far as I can see). Can anyone provide any info that will enable me to understand how the loan rating can change so radically in such a short period? FC's credit rating algorithm revealed: algorithmOnly Fairy Cakes knows. You could email to ask them, or try the official forum, and it would be interesting to see whether you get a helpful reply. They do have a lot more information than is published. The new loan will at least repay the 3 earlier loans. You either have to trust their ratings or base your decision on what you can glean. As the borrower hasn't answered questions on this, it seems either they don't know the reason themselves or the information isn't in the public domain.
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blender
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18870
Jan 11, 2016 17:54:58 GMT
Post by blender on Jan 11, 2016 17:54:58 GMT
They have only made two repayments on the latest loan and so I guess they have found other cheaper funding and asked FC to review before they repay (pure speculation on my part.) The only visible change is that they will now roll up all the old loans in a new 60 month schedule, with will make the repayments probably lower, despite the small increase in principal, and that may improve their risk band - though not from D to A+. That said I have seen a lot worse offered as A+. 18919 today was an A+ asset purchase loan at 8.3% and we do not even get a charge on the asset we buy. I cannot understand the banding and think that we have to go for security if holding for any time. I would rather go for more property at 8% than to diversify into this unsecured stuff at 8.3% - but I'll be doing neither of course.
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18870
Jan 12, 2016 16:47:17 GMT
Post by pete101 on Jan 12, 2016 16:47:17 GMT
The following info kindly supplied by FC. When a company comes for a new loan the rating has to be the same as the other loans they have with Funding Circle, unless the new loan will pay off the other loan ( I did not know this). So the first 3 loans were all D, as the first was D and the subsequent 2 did not pay off the previous. The fourth loan is paying off the previous loans and therefore the rating can be entirely re-evaluated. So presumably between the first loan and the fourth loan, the company improved its rating from D to A+. The principal in the fourth was slightly more than the previous 3 o/s combined, but the interest rate is reduced from 14% to 8.3% and this will lead to a lower monthly payment, which is certainly a valid factor.
Bit of a leap of faith for me, but the sequence has logic.
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spyrogyra
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18870
Jan 12, 2016 17:26:02 GMT
Post by spyrogyra on Jan 12, 2016 17:26:02 GMT
Not entirely relevant, but I would like to mention that at the moment there are 11 loan requests. All of them are A an A+. Their financials are not what most of lenders would be happy to see for A/A+ grades. If the rating is greatly influenced by the strength of the PG, then lenders should be provided with information about the PG. Otherwise if lenders should rely on the grading only, then FC should be liable to recover loses greater than predicted for a fully-diversified portfolio Or at least feeling the obligation to pay back A/A+ loans that fail before repaying the first 2-3 installments. I know, I know it's a pipe dream ...
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ablender
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18870
Jan 12, 2016 23:23:01 GMT
Post by ablender on Jan 12, 2016 23:23:01 GMT
The following info kindly supplied by FC. When a company comes for a new loan the rating has to be the same as the other loans they have with Funding Circle, unless the new loan will pay off the other loan ( I did not know this). So the first 3 loans were all D, as the first was D and the subsequent 2 did not pay off the previous. The fourth loan is paying off the previous loans and therefore the rating can be entirely re-evaluated. So presumably between the first loan and the fourth loan, the company improved its rating from D to A+. The principal in the fourth was slightly more than the previous 3 o/s combined, but the interest rate is reduced from 14% to 8.3% and this will lead to a lower monthly payment, which is certainly a valid factor. Bit of a leap of faith for me, but the sequence has logic. Does this work in the other way as well? Let us say a company has an FC loan rated A+. The situation for this company worsens in such a way that a new loan deserves to be a D rated one. They take an FC loan without repaying the previous one and voila . . . as if by magic . . .another A+ rated loan. Is it possible?
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metoo
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 4:10:28 GMT
Post by metoo on Jan 13, 2016 4:10:28 GMT
The following info kindly supplied by FC. When a company comes for a new loan the rating has to be the same as the other loans they have with Funding Circle, unless the new loan will pay off the other loan ( I did not know this). So the first 3 loans were all D, as the first was D and the subsequent 2 did not pay off the previous. The fourth loan is paying off the previous loans and therefore the rating can be entirely re-evaluated. So presumably between the first loan and the fourth loan, the company improved its rating from D to A+. The principal in the fourth was slightly more than the previous 3 o/s combined, but the interest rate is reduced from 14% to 8.3% and this will lead to a lower monthly payment, which is certainly a valid factor. Bit of a leap of faith for me, but the sequence has logic. Does this work in the other way as well? Let us say a company has an FC loan rated A+. The situation for this company worsens in such a way that a new loan deserves to be a D rated one. They take an FC loan without repaying the previous one and voila . . . as if by magic . . .another A+ rated loan. Is it possible? I get the impression it was a bit if an ad hoc answer. I'd certainly hope every new loan is risk assessed. However, making the borrower refinance their whole borrowings to get a lower rate does raise a new fee on the whole sum, and the borrower is willing because the monthly payment drops. It would be interesting to know whether there have ever been exceptions or whether it's in the T&Cs.
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blender
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 9:25:03 GMT
Post by blender on Jan 13, 2016 9:25:03 GMT
I believe it has always been the case that a borrower cannot have simultaneous live loans at different bands, because it is in the borrower that the risk lies. Never known to have happened - and would be a technical error to be reported. I do not know of any old loans having risk bands changed because a new additional loan has been taken. FC can waive or reduce their fee at their own discretion and without telling lenders. If I were this borrower I would not expect to have to pay full fees.
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sl75
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 10:31:06 GMT
Post by sl75 on Jan 13, 2016 10:31:06 GMT
I believe it has always been the case that a borrower cannot have simultaneous live loans at different bands, because it is in the borrower that the risk lies. Never known to have happened - and would be a technical error to be reported. I do not know of any old loans having risk bands changed because a new additional loan has been taken. It happened quite a bit in the earlier days - several of the loan pages even had two separate columns for "original risk band" and "current risk band" or similar. The T&Cs implied (or possibly directly stated, I don't remember exactly) that FC would re-evaluate the risk band every month, and stated that any loan whose rating changed by two risk bands would be untradeable. In practice, the only times I ever saw a risk band re-evaluated were when the borrower came back for more, at which point the risk band of the old loan would be modified to match the risk band of the new loan. It is interesting that pete101 reports that this practice has now reversed - with subsequent loans always being at the risk band of the OLD loan (rather than changing the risk band of the old loan to match the new). Has anyone been downloading and analysing the loan book long enough and regularly enough to identify when the format changed to acknowledge only a single risk band rather than two (original and current)? This might be indicative of when FC officially changed policy on this...
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blender
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 13:51:36 GMT
Post by blender on Jan 13, 2016 13:51:36 GMT
I do seem to remember little arrows to say whether and in what direction a risk band had changed, and also a prohibition on selling loans which had been changed by more than one band - now gone. Changing a risk band on taking additional loans must be before the time I was interested. In those days a further loan could be taken only after six months. The practice of rolling the old loan into a new one was started I believe in early 2013, when rates fell and it was beneficial to the borrower to refinance - there were complaints from lenders who held high interest rates - possible bought at a premium on the SM. You would think that an additional loan would tend to lower the band - with extra debt, but with this case we see the band changed from D to A+. What has happened is that more risk has generally been let into the bands for SMEs and the fixed interest rates for each band have been increased when compared with, say, the first minimum rates when set in mid 2013, and two new bands were added - extending the availability of FC loans much further down the credit-worthiness scale SMEs. So those who ask for further loans would need to be given higher (better) bands just to maintain the same rates imo. In these circumstances I expect that FC are keen to roll everything up in a new loan at current rates, and I guess will be flexible on their fees.
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metoo
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Jan 13, 2016 15:42:11 GMT
Post by metoo on Jan 13, 2016 15:42:11 GMT
... FC can waive or reduce their fee at their own discretion and without telling lenders. If I were this borrower I would not expect to have to pay full fees. Fees would probably be negotiable, but this loan extends the original term by over 15 months and increases the sum, so I'd be surprised if Fiendishly Canny didn't draw a fee. I'd see it as like remortgaging - there tends to be a fee for a new fixed deal.
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sl75
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 15:42:47 GMT
Post by sl75 on Jan 13, 2016 15:42:47 GMT
I do seem to remember little arrows to say whether and in what direction a risk band had changed... Indeed, those arrows replaced what had originally been two entirely separate columns (the extra space taken by the usually-redundant column was used for the premium/discount, which hadn't existed in the original version of the loan parts page).
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blender
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18870
Jan 13, 2016 15:51:03 GMT
Post by blender on Jan 13, 2016 15:51:03 GMT
I do seem to remember little arrows to say whether and in what direction a risk band had changed... Indeed, those arrows replaced what had originally been two entirely separate columns (the extra space taken by the usually-redundant column was used for the premium/discount, which hadn't existed in the original version of the loan parts page). That was before I joined. I remember that FC recommended that the capital was spread over at least 20 loans, which Autobid would do for you.
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