carlos
I'm short Bondora and long p2p.
Posts: 104
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Post by carlos on Jan 13, 2016 9:11:58 GMT
Hello, have anyone noticed some explanation for spike increase in defaults in December? Some users where explaining it through bad accounting for B-secure loans, but did we got some official announcement (and apology) from Bondora?
The biggest problem with Bondora I see now that they can lie to us and "correct" Part of the database silently without loud reaction from investors...
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james
Posts: 2,205
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Post by james on Jan 14, 2016 12:35:13 GMT
I think no apology but if I remember correctly someone did post that Bondora support had said that it was due to those B-secure deals.
For anyone not familiar with B-Secure, a borrower can pay Bondora monthly fee for the remainder o their loan term and change the non-interest rate terms roughly as they wish, for example adding five years to a five year term. Lenders don't get any of the fee money, it seems. Bondora systems were't handling this correctly, so some of those who should have defaulted were resetting their status using B-Secure to postpone default indefinitely. Posts in the Bondora forum had people seeing around a 15% increase in their defaulted loan count when a batch of loans that should have defaulted were tracked down and moved to that state in a lump.
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Post by oktaeder on Jan 14, 2016 17:10:51 GMT
James that's not all correct what you wrote. - yes, bondora let lots of loans go to default even if there was no overdue in principal. They changed the rules (60+ days overdue of at least 1ct principal) without informing anyone (as usual) - most of these now defaulted loans have been b-secure but not all. There have been other not paying all interests for many months - b-secure is changing the repayments, that's right. But only up to 1 year. Bondora earns money by fees, if the borrower pays (IF!) the lenders earn money by (regular) interests. But the most don't pay. - so sell rescheduled loans and buy such only if you know exactly what you are doing There have some loans gone to default I didn't understand why or why at that very day. The answers from support have benn not ... very helpfull.
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Post by rahafoorum on Jan 14, 2016 21:01:36 GMT
The issue was that borrowers can get a new schedule up to 60 months including a grace period of up to 12 months (no principal payments during this period, only interest). However, these loans didn't default even after like 7 months of no interest payments.
Bondora didn't give any notification about this issue nor about fixing it around 15th-16th December (don't remember exact date). It did increase the default rate a lot for 2014. loans by about 10% amountwise, but not sure what the effect was for earlier and later loans.
There's no real easy way to differentiate this effect from regular defaults either, since this data is not available in the dataset unfortunately.
Bondora has also changed the default definition and implemented that change probably sometime during December without notification. Now it takes 74+ days to default, instead of the 60+ it used to be.
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james
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Post by james on Jan 14, 2016 21:43:37 GMT
74 days seems like a good idea. Some time for chasing after a second missed payment or overdue amount going above two missed payments before defaulting the loan.
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duck
Member of DD Central
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Post by duck on Jan 15, 2016 5:06:57 GMT
.... Bondora didn't give any notification about this issue nor about fixing it around 15th-16th December (don't remember exact date). FYI it was the 15th, my spread sheets show 57 new defaults for that day giving me a total of 817 current defaults. The 57 defaults represent a total of 659.37 Euro capital and 100.73 accrued interest and penalties outstanding to me.
Since official default 4 of the 57 have made very small repayments - this is a lower % than is 'normal' with my defaults.
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Post by rahafoorum on Jan 18, 2016 11:00:50 GMT
It's too early to say anything about those defaults yet. 57 loans is also relatively small sample in the bigger picture, so that results can be here or there anyway. I personally at least don't see any point in looking too much into your personal portfolio when making any conclusions about recovery process or its performance.
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carlos
I'm short Bondora and long p2p.
Posts: 104
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Post by carlos on Jan 26, 2016 21:17:24 GMT
My Bondora portfolio is practically changing to charity... For last 30 days I've received roughly same amount of interest as I've lost on additional defaulted principal for the same period. So any possible gain is negated by defaults and possibly only successful recovery can turn it into positive territory ...
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Sr. Lobo
Member of DD Central
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Post by Sr. Lobo on Jan 26, 2016 21:51:13 GMT
After two years, I'm aproaching to positive territory. Well, not exactly, I've been forced to pay taxes for 5500 e, suposed interests, that's about 1600 plus into negative numbers.
I wish i've never known about that mess
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Post by rahafoorum on Jan 27, 2016 20:13:34 GMT
My Bondora portfolio is practically changing to charity... For last 30 days I've received roughly same amount of interest as I've lost on additional defaulted principal for the same period. So any possible gain is negated by defaults and possibly only successful recovery can turn it into positive territory ... If you mean the outstanding principal for defaulted loans, then that's not much of an indicator of your portfolio performance usually. The problem with comparing that amount to interest received, is that when a loan defaults 100% of the 5 year principal payments are "deducted" in your calculation, while only the few months of interest payments from proper loans are accounted for. It's very pessimistic scenario. It's especially pessimistic since most of defaults happen quite early on in the process as well, meaning that the amount of likely interest accounted for in that calculation is very minimal in most relatively fresh portfolios (up to 2+ years even). Essentially, if you look at it at month 12 for example, you'll have accounted for 60 months of principal payments on the defaulted side from majority of all the defaults that will happen and only 12 months of interests from the performing loans that will ever happen. While I do enjoy a situation with my own portfolio where my XIRR shows above 20% return after deducting all overdues and defaults, it'll never happen with a fresh portfolio. I did an anlaysis on the time when loans default on Bondora a while back. The exact months and durations have probably changed a bit nowadays, but the trend should be similar with majority defaulting during first quarter of the loan duration: rahafoorum.ee/en/defaults-happen-bondora/
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carlos
I'm short Bondora and long p2p.
Posts: 104
Likes: 21
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Post by carlos on Jan 27, 2016 22:06:22 GMT
It's especially pessimistic since most of defaults happen quite early on in the process as well, meaning that the amount of likely interest accounted for in that calculation is very minimal in most relatively fresh portfolios (up to 2+ years even). Of course, I'm aware of it... Actually portfolio is pretty mature... current loans are 0.4 in average (where 0 is newly issued and 1 fully matured loan). Also what I'm looking at is *trend* in defaults... and while I would expect increase of default rate to slow, this is unfortunately not happening... On the other side trend in income of interest is decrease, as I'm not reinvesting. If I was reinvesting I'd expect even higher trend of default rate increase in time. One other argument is that we don't know what recovery rates to expect - Bondora somehow doesn't want to share "expected" rates with us. So for this reason I'm charging off whole defaulted principal. Also any recovery means the payment won't be made "on time" (likely 1-3 years late) and if correctly discounted for time delay it won't help with XIRR too much.
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carlos
I'm short Bondora and long p2p.
Posts: 104
Likes: 21
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Post by carlos on Jan 27, 2016 22:20:36 GMT
I did an anlaysis on the time when loans default on Bondora a while back. The exact months and durations have probably changed a bit nowadays, but the trend should be similar with majority defaulting during first quarter of the loan duration: rahafoorum.ee/en/defaults-happen-bondora/I remember reading your blog post at the time and my prior analysis led to similar results... But reality now seems a bit different (as I said my portfolio maturity is 0.4 in average). Not a surprise once we have found that Bondora was cheating with B-secure defaults and not reporting them in dataset correctly.
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Post by rahafoorum on Jan 27, 2016 22:38:19 GMT
I did an anlaysis on the time when loans default on Bondora a while back. The exact months and durations have probably changed a bit nowadays, but the trend should be similar with majority defaulting during first quarter of the loan duration: rahafoorum.ee/en/defaults-happen-bondora/I remember reading your blog post at the time and my prior analysis led to similar results... But reality now seems a bit different (as I said my portfolio maturity is 0.4 in average). Not a surprise once we have found that Bondora was cheating with B-secure defaults and not reporting them in dataset correctly. Depending on what loans you have in your portfolio, this might have been the case indeed. It was quite an increase for 2014 loans that probably skewed the data quite a bit.
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