hendragon
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Post by hendragon on Mar 7, 2016 11:44:38 GMT
2 new loans now have a rate of 16%(for over 100k). What does, or indeed should, happen if a BH puts these on the SM? If the loan were sold in small chunks would it pay 12% or 16%?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 7, 2016 11:50:28 GMT
12%. They only receive the bonus interest if they hold to term.
Unsure whether, if a BH lends £100k initially and then sells £50k on the SM, they receive 16% or 14% on the remaining £50k. It should be 14% of course, otherwise there is an obvious BH flipping incentive
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 7, 2016 11:59:35 GMT
Just checked the FS SM help page and it states that, in that scenario, bonus interest would be paid at the original (higher) rate on the remaining lower balance. I can see how that gets loans filled faster but it could certainly distort the SM if abused
"Example: Original purchase of £50,000 with base interest of 12% plus incentive bonus of 3%. £45,000 later sold on secondary market. Original purchaser receives base interest of 12% plus incentive bonus of 3% on remaining £5,000 Secondary market purchaser receives base interest of 12% on £45,000"
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hendragon
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Post by hendragon on Mar 7, 2016 13:00:18 GMT
I missed that part of the FAQ, thankyou stevet. I can't quite get my head around the implications for the SM though.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 7, 2016 13:17:00 GMT
Someone wanting to invest only £50k but with access to £100k could stick £100k into a loan initially, to qualify for the 16% rate rather than the 14% rate, and then look to sell the other £50k on the SM. On the £50k held to term this should net them an extra 2% or £500. If they list the £50k they want to get rid of on the SM at 0.5% discount, that will "cost" them £250 so, if it sells quickly, they are £250 ahead. If they hold it for a little while and then sell, they're earning £115 per week (12%) on the unwanted £50k at very low risk, which would cover the 0.5% discount within 2.5 weeks.
The risk of course is that several BHs try this "flipping" approach and end up having to discount their excess rather more than 0.5% in order to move it on. In the meantime, any small investor wanting to sell some of the same loan (bought at 12%) would be completely stuffed!
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Post by xyon100 on Mar 7, 2016 14:44:45 GMT
All I know is that bonuses for 10,000 plus were added literally minutes after I had allocated funds meaning I could no longer get the bonus. Not happy at all.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 7, 2016 15:11:11 GMT
All I know is that bonuses for 10,000 plus were added literally minutes after I had allocated funds meaning I could no longer get the bonus. Not happy at all. Are you sure? In the past, when FS have added bonuses at a later date all bids above the specified level earned the bonuses without regard to whether they were placed before or after the bonuses were announced. I would seek clarification from FS. To restrict bonuses only to bids made after the bonuses were announced would result in everyone withholding their bids until after bonuses were announced, and ISTM that would cause a funding crisis for FS.
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Post by xyon100 on Mar 7, 2016 15:28:55 GMT
Bonuses were initially only offered on 50,000 and 100,000, 2 and 4 percent. I was slightly annoyed already that 10,000 wasn't getting a bonus.
""5 hours ago
We are adding a 1% bonus for investments of £10,000 and over""
Brilliant, except I allocated funds based on no bonus for 10,000 being offered leaving my 10,000 earning 12 percent and not 13. Honestly, this "see how we go" business is not on, particularly as it has now cost me money.
Yes I do understand that FS have applied the bonuses retrospectively, but I don't have 10,000 in any one loan because there seemed to be no reason not to split the funds between two loans. Grrr!
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 7, 2016 15:42:32 GMT
Someone wanting to invest only £50k but with access to £100k could stick £100k into a loan initially, to qualify for the 16% rate rather than the 14% rate, and then look to sell the other £50k on the SM. On the £50k held to term this should net them an extra 2% or £500. If they list the £50k they want to get rid of on the SM at 0.5% discount, that will "cost" them £250 so, if it sells quickly, they are £250 ahead. If they hold it for a little while and then sell, they're earning £115 per week (12%) on the unwanted £50k at very low risk, which would cover the 0.5% discount within 2.5 weeks. The risk of course is that several BHs try this "flipping" approach and end up having to discount their excess rather more than 0.5% in order to move it on. In the meantime, any small investor wanting to sell some of the same loan (bought at 12%) would be completely stuffed! I expect this will happen, but I'm not sure it's a particularly negative type of flipping, since the investment is helping the loan get funded, and the investor is selling the extra parts for less than they paid for them. Their 'bonus' for providing the service is the additional 2% interest that they'll earn on the £50k they are holding to term, and that might ultimately cost FS less than arranging an extra £50k of underwriting would have. With the SM available, any time FS need to call on extra investors to fund a loan we should expect that some/many/most/all of the additional parts will be put up for sale as soon as the loan draws down. That will mean anyone else trying to sell will face competition. Indeed, when selling a loan with a bonus attached you get a message that backs up what you say SteveT ; " Please note: you have a bonus associated with this investment. This bonus is only paid at the end of your loan on the remainder of this investment" Doesn't say your bonus will be forfeited if you drop below the amount that got you the bonus in the first place. It makes overbuying for reduction later, much less attractive (or at least impractical) for the smaller investor and pushes more of the loan into BH hands, upping the overall rate. Would these bigger loans fill if the bonuses were spread out across all investors by giving the resultant average rate to one and all of [say] 14% at the start, going off mikes1531 calculation here? I'd certainly put more into Poole if it was listed at 14%. Trouble is, that's pricing for liquidity and just because Poole is larger than Liverpool mixed use, I don't see it as riskier. I also see those two loans mentioned are now underwritten, how much is the underwriting cost in addition to the bonuses? More or less expensive than moving the loan to 14%? The FS example cited by SteveT earlier seems to make it clear that once an investor qualifies for the bonus it will be applied to however much of the loan they are holding at maturity, no matter how small. So a medium-sized investor could put £10k into Poole/Liverpool, sell off most before maturity, and still earn the extra 1% on the portion they keep to the end. So there still is incentive for them to increase their investment to the threshold for the bonus. The bonus does, however, provide no incentive at all to an investor who has adopted a strategy, suggested in other threads, of exiting from all loans before maturity via the SM in an effort to reduce default risk. I haven't a clue how many FS investors are going to try this strategy but, if many do, I'd expect the discounts required to sell the parts on the SM will be significant.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 7, 2016 15:48:22 GMT
Yes I do understand that FS have applied the bonuses retrospectively, but I don't have 10,000 in any one loan because there seemed to be no reason not to split the funds between two loans. Grrr! xyon100: With FS being nice people, and with you being a valued investor, I suspect that if you asked them nicely they would allow you to consolidate the investments you have spread among multiple loans into a single loan in order to allow you to qualify for the bonus. I realise there's absolutely no incentive for them to do that other than to be seen as being investor-friendly, but I would not be surprised if they'd do this for you. It can't hurt to ask!
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Post by xyon100 on Mar 7, 2016 15:53:17 GMT
No, can't hurt to ask. In my opinion though, they are absolutely sending out the wrong message by moving the goal posts at the last minute. Lesson learned.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 7, 2016 16:05:51 GMT
I expect this will happen, but I'm not sure it's a particularly negative type of flipping, since the investment is helping the loan get funded, and the investor is selling the extra parts for less than they paid for them. Their 'bonus' for providing the service is the additional 2% interest that they'll earn on the £50k they are holding to term, and that might ultimately cost FS less than arranging an extra £50k of underwriting would have. With the SM available, any time FS need to call on extra investors to fund a loan we should expect that some/many/most/all of the additional parts will be put up for sale as soon as the loan draws down. That will mean anyone else trying to sell will face competition. But if what you describe starts happening regularly, smaller investors will be better off not bidding at all in large PM auctions, instead leaving it to the BHs to fill the loans at high bonus rates, and then investing instead via the SM at a discount. I can't see how that helps FS ...
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Mar 7, 2016 16:16:37 GMT
I expect this will happen, but I'm not sure it's a particularly negative type of flipping, since the investment is helping the loan get funded, and the investor is selling the extra parts for less than they paid for them. Their 'bonus' for providing the service is the additional 2% interest that they'll earn on the £50k they are holding to term, and that might ultimately cost FS less than arranging an extra £50k of underwriting would have. With the SM available, any time FS need to call on extra investors to fund a loan we should expect that some/many/most/all of the additional parts will be put up for sale as soon as the loan draws down. That will mean anyone else trying to sell will face competition. But if what you describe starts happening regularly, smaller investors will be better off not bidding at all in large PM auctions, instead leaving it to the BHs to fill the loans at high bonus rates, and then investing instead via the SM at a discount. I can't see how that helps FS ... AIUI -- and I'm not qualified, etc. -- that would work only for investors intending to hold the loan until maturity. AFAIK -- same disclaimer -- the rules that give investors a tax incentive to exit a loan before maturity apply only to parts bought on the PM. Someone not worried about that should be OK. I have to agree, of course, that FS would be best off if they could fund all their loans without having to offer bonuses or engage underwriters, but that has to be a lot easier said than done. Until they can increase investor demand for their loans ISTM that they need to ease off on their efforts to find more borrowers. Getting the balance right isn't easy.
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