adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 21, 2016 17:38:53 GMT
I have put for sale £50 from loan 84 to cover a -£50 balance. It is after some £60000. I want to pull this sale back and sell another £50 instead from another loan. This might sound a silly question, but was there a reason you didn't notice that there was already £60k of 84 waiting a new home?
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Mar 21, 2016 17:47:59 GMT
A simple cancel button would mean that I will get back my loan part and am free to sell something else. sl75 , may I ask you if implementing a cancel button would take away anything from you? It adds to system complexity, causing things to work less quickly and adding to the risk of things going wrong, especially if implemented as an entirely separate function that must nevertheless ensure it co-ordinates its actions with the buying function in case you're trying to cancel at the exact same moment someone else is trying to buy. The biggest complexity would occur when cancelling a partially-sold loan part, especially at times when other system bugs are causing the proportion sold to be out of sync with reality, as we've seen a few times before (what if you cancel a loan part sale because a bug is showing it as unsold even though there's zero availability on the marketplace?) If you read what I'm saying again, I'm not arguing against cancellation functionity (although it does still seem like an unnecessary addition to me), I'm saying it would seem most efficiently implemented by using the existing "buying" function to do it. All that is needed [edit: ... if the market becomes sufficiently illiquid that this becomes an issue] is to ensure that a buyer's own loan parts (if any) are considered to be at the front of the queue for a buying function acting on behalf of that buyer. i.e. rather than something like ORDER BY [date listed for sale] it would have something like ORDER BY [seller == buyer] THEN BY [date listed for sale] With that mechanism, a separate "cancel button" becomes unnecessary in the user interface, because the functionality already exists. If a separate user interface for "cancel sale" were to be created with that back-end mechanism, it would simply translate to a buying instruction behind-the-scenes (perhaps with some of the text re-written on the confirmation page). Even without the necessary prioritisation to ensure that buying a loan that you have on sale acts directly to cause your own loan parts to be bought first, the market currently remains sufficiently liquid that you can do so and be reasonably sure that the original sale will occur within a couple more days. However, even with this less invasive mechanism for implementing a cancellation, it would still seem best to proceed with caution, in case there are loopholes that may be exploited (and which savingstream may already be aware of if the lack of a cancellation option was an explicit design decision rather than an omission).
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 21, 2016 18:25:58 GMT
I have put for sale £50 from loan 84 to cover a -£50 balance. It is after some £60000. I want to pull this sale back and sell another £50 instead from another loan. This might sound a silly question, but was there a reason you didn't notice that there was already £60k of 84 waiting a new home? I knew that there were £60k, but one I have no idea how fast it is going and being replaced (even if one looks at the investor activity, you can only have a very general idea at best.) Also it seemed to me as my best option then. Now I think it differently, so why can't I change?
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 21, 2016 18:28:41 GMT
A simple cancel button would mean that I will get back my loan part and am free to sell something else. sl75 , may I ask you if implementing a cancel button would take away anything from you? It adds to system complexity, causing things to work less quickly and adding to the risk of things going wrong, especially if implemented as an entirely separate function that must nevertheless ensure it co-ordinates its actions with the buying function in case you're trying to cancel at the exact same moment someone else is trying to buy. The biggest complexity would occur when cancelling a partially-sold loan part, especially at times when other system bugs are causing the proportion sold to be out of sync with reality, as we've seen a few times before (what if you cancel a loan part sale because a bug is showing it as unsold even though there's zero availability on the marketplace?) If you read what I'm saying again, I'm not arguing against cancellation functionity (although it does still seem like an unnecessary addition to me), I'm saying it would seem most efficiently implemented by using the existing "buying" function to do it. All that is needed [edit: ... if the market becomes sufficiently illiquid that this becomes an issue] is to ensure that a buyer's own loan parts (if any) are considered to be at the front of the queue for a buying function acting on behalf of that buyer. i.e. rather than something like ORDER BY [date listed for sale] it would have something like ORDER BY [seller == buyer] THEN BY [date listed for sale] With that mechanism, a separate "cancel button" becomes unnecessary in the user interface, because the functionality already exists. If a separate user interface for "cancel sale" were to be created with that back-end mechanism, it would simply translate to a buying instruction behind-the-scenes (perhaps with some of the text re-written on the confirmation page). Even without the necessary prioritisation to ensure that buying a loan that you have on sale acts directly to cause your own loan parts to be bought first, the market currently remains sufficiently liquid that you can do so and be reasonably sure that the original sale will occur within a couple more days. However, even with this less invasive mechanism for implementing a cancellation, it would still seem best to proceed with caution, in case there are loopholes that may be exploited (and which savingstream may already be aware of if the lack of a cancellation option was an explicit design decision rather than an omission). As your proposition will have the same effect, if it is easier to implement, then I am happy to support this.
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gurberly
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Post by gurberly on Mar 21, 2016 19:25:04 GMT
Surely any cancellation process would need a specific link back to the transaction being cancelled?
Any other way would be haphazard at best. Cancelling your loan part sale has to be specific to your loan parts. On the suggested “buy back” scenario, If whilst pondering your desire to cancel, within those fractions of a second that you sought to buy back the loans on an “order by” basis... then done the captchas, someone else could have bought your parts of your loan, meaning you could well purchase other new parts?
Without a 100% way of guaranteeing you are buying your own loan parts, and the purchase being limited to your own loan parts, then there is no way forward on this approach. I'll contradict myself here and say.... Not saying this approach would not work, in terms of limiting what is being bought, but it also introduces similar complexities?
I too would like a cancel facility. If a loan isn’t selling, I would like the ability to reappraise options.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 22, 2016 6:54:23 GMT
I am not fussed about the mechanism used to implement a "Cancel" button (or buy back). What I can say about partially sold loan parts is that this would be the easiest scenario. Having a partially sold loan part (you can check this from the "My Loans">"Selling LoanParts" tab) ensures that your loan part is already at the head of the queue. Just buy what is left. My concern is when there is something like £40k ahead of you and for any reason you need/want to cancel the sale. This is implemented on various other platforms without breaking them, so I am sure that it is possible. I am not a programmer and I am not going to get into discussions about the "how" it is done. There are professionals who can deal with that and savingstream has shown that they can handle this part well.
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spiral
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Post by spiral on Mar 22, 2016 8:08:15 GMT
This might sound a silly question, but was there a reason you didn't notice that there was already £60k of 84 waiting a new home? I too would like a cancel option but if not possible (or not desired by SS) how about at the point you are prompted to confirm your sale (you know the bit that says you will no longer receive interest on the listed part) it tells you that there is currently 60K in front of you. At least then you can decide not to proceed without the need for multiple screens open.
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Post by highlandtiger on Mar 30, 2016 7:31:25 GMT
I too would have liked a cancel button. For the record, I have had £81 of PBL080 up for sale since the 24th March, and still not sold. that has lost me 16p in interest.
Looks like I won't be eating this week ;(
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Mar 30, 2016 7:48:31 GMT
I too would have liked a cancel button. For the record, I have had £81 of PBL080 up for sale since the 24th March, and still not sold. that has lost me 16p in interest. Looks like I won't be eating this week ;( Considering your dietary requirements, unfortunately 16p is not going to take you a long way.
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Post by highlandtiger on Mar 30, 2016 7:52:26 GMT
I too would have liked a cancel button. For the record, I have had £81 of PBL080 up for sale since the 24th March, and still not sold. that has lost me 16p in interest. Looks like I won't be eating this week ;( Considering your dietary requirements, unfortunately 16p is not going to take you a long way. 16p is the rough price of half a frozen mouse
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Mar 30, 2016 10:18:45 GMT
The lack of a cancel option seems to me to be a large part of the cause of the selling queues being relatively short.
I directly witnessed yesterday an additional £10k being put up for sale the moment that a previous loan unit had completely sold (and one that I'd added behind it started to sell), implying that a BH was disposing of a large holding in that loan in £10k chunks (presumably listing each £10k when the previous one had completely sold).
If a cancel option were available, they, and others who were holding back on listing parts for sale that they didn't want to risk staying unsold overnight, would have no reason to do so - even if there's £100k on the market of a loan with typical sales in the region of £20k per day, you might as well add yours to the back - you never know when a BH wanting £100k per loan might stir up the market, and if it's not sold before midnight you'd cancel and try again another time. As it is, anyone who is paying attention will avoid adding loan parts to the back of a long queue (either selling something else, or adding more funds to clear a negative balance), and as long as the largest investors are paying attention (which seems likely!), the queues will naturally be kept fairly short by market forces.
Having considered the options, I personally prefer short selling queues with no cancel option to long selling queues with a cancel option.
It's to the slight disadvantage of BHs, who may need to ignore loans where there's never a decent amount available, and who may need to spend a little more time managing the selling down of a large holding (rather than putting £x00,000 up for sale in one go, and losing up to several days' interest), and also to the slight disadvantage of those who tick boxes to say they've read and understood something without bothering to read and understand it (and who thus may end up at the back of a long selling queue without realising until it's too late), but for most of the rest, I'd think the benefits of the current system far outweigh the inconvenience of not being able to change your mind about a sale. As mentioned previously, a "cancellation" can be effected by buying back the same amount and then hoping the selling queue is less than 48 hours... and market forces seem likely to keep most selling queues below 48 hours (as people who are paying attention will avoid joining the back of an obviously-long queue).
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 30, 2016 10:25:04 GMT
I completely agree. The likely downsides of adding a Cancel option (in terms of lengthy selling queues and late-night de-list / re-list shenanigans) outweigh the benefits. If you don't want to get stuck in a selling queue, simply check whether there's a queue before you sell !
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Post by savingstream on Mar 30, 2016 10:31:53 GMT
The ability to cancel a sale whilst only part sold will be in place very soon.
We are going to show the amount for sale in front of you in the queue as well so you can make a more informed decision about selling/cancelling the sale.
Interest will be earned whilst loan parts are for sale. The reason we don't currently offer this is to discourage gaming of the SM by people not paying for their parts and still earning interest. The interest currently goes into the Provision Fund but are happy to amend this.
Anything to add with regards the SM whilst we are focussing on this?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 10:42:22 GMT
...
Interest will be earned whilst loan parts are for sale. The reason we don't currently offer this is to discourage gaming of the SM by people not paying for their parts and still earning interest. The interest currently goes into the Provision Fund but are happy to amend this.
Anything to add with regards the SM whilst we are focussing on this?
Could you please only allow payment of interest for loans that the investor has already funded previously, so as to avoid gaming of system please? Scenario : If I buy £1000 of loan from SM with currently £1M available of the same loan on SM, don't pay SS for the £1000 and put it on sale instantly. Waiting for my part to be sold and just earning interest on it. This should still be discouraged. Any way SS is going to ensure that the scenario can not happen?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 30, 2016 10:45:49 GMT
Thanks for that savingstream , seems like a useful improvement. I presume the "How much is ahead of you in the queue?" figure will only include include retail lender parts and that SS / Underwriter owned parts will still stand behind retail lenders in the queues? Also, will the proceeds of any partial loan-part sale be credited to lenders' accounts at the moment it happens or only if the lender opts to cancel the rest of the requested sale?
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