trouble
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Post by trouble on Apr 14, 2016 22:17:28 GMT
Maybe I am missing something here @butch cassidy I was under the impression the QAA invested amount has been steadily growing over recent weeks so if it is growing how is the QAA stopping MLIA investors selling loan units right now, if anything surely the QAA would have been buying loans units from the SM or somewhere else. As I understand it the only time the QAA will need to exercise it's market sell priority is when it needs to sell units to maintain liquidity, i.e people are selling out of the QAA. When I joined AC last year the SM was pretty much empty bar a few loans and this has only changed since the recdnt flood on new loans, I did not see the QAA stopping the SM back then as pretty anything worth buying got snapped up. So are you saying that the mere existence of the QAA ( and by implication I suppose the GBBA and GEIA as well) is creating an unfair market for MLIA lenders? Personally I do not agree with you if this is your view. I like being able to have a %age of my investment in all the above mentioned accounts for different reasons but as trouble says, when investing in the MLIA I accept that these loans are potentially for TERM. I only invest in terms that I am able to accept the full term, anything shorter is a bonus in my view I don't see this level of liquidity (or lack of) being here for ever, I just hope the FSA help lubricate the market somewhat with full authorisation for IFISAs But ultimately each loan that the QAA has taken a piece of will sell out (but there will always be loans where QAA is dictating the sales priority and hopefully that number will grow and become smoother in growth), meaning our MLIA holdings will be 'near liquid' rather than 'liquid' on new loans. I went through a period of buying loan chunks as they were almost sold out, but have stopped that now. Clearly the QAA has been stockpiling holdings for sometime (last Summer?), hence the dearth of availability of MLIA portions of loans from Summer last year to cFeb this year. Not sure when last year you joined but AC were suffering complaints due to having no market as all loans were being snapped up immediately, this was limiting their growth/ability to do more/larger loans as new lenders were not being satisfied, now they can be which helps all of us long term whether those new lenders are MLIA/QAA/GBBA etc. I don't mind anything between 8% and 12% as long as I'm happy with the risk but ultimately i'd like to diversfy further from m current 3% max in any one loan, i'd like to have that down to 2% by the end of this year. The attractiveness of the QAA is helping provide loans but as an MLIA lender (i have no QAA/GBBA/GEIA) i acknowledge that the QAA as it is will help loan generation and me to diversify quicker as a result.
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bg
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Post by bg on Apr 15, 2016 5:16:55 GMT
Maybe I am missing something here @butch cassidy I was under the impression the QAA invested amount has been steadily growing over recent weeks so if it is growing how is the QAA stopping MLIA investors selling loan units right now, if anything surely the QAA would have been buying loans units from the SM or somewhere else. As I understand it the only time the QAA will need to exercise it's market sell priority is when it needs to sell units to maintain liquidity, i.e people are selling out of the QAA. When I joined AC last year the SM was pretty much empty bar a few loans and this has only changed since the recdnt flood on new loans, I did not see the QAA stopping the SM back then as pretty anything worth buying got snapped up. So are you saying that the mere existence of the QAA ( and by implication I suppose the GBBA and GEIA as well) is creating an unfair market for MLIA lenders? Personally I do not agree with you if this is your view. I like being able to have a %age of my investment in all the above mentioned accounts for different reasons but as trouble says, when investing in the MLIA I accept that these loans are potentially for TERM. I only invest in terms that I am able to accept the full term, anything shorter is a bonus in my view I don't see this level of liquidity (or lack of) being here for ever, I just hope the FSA help lubricate the market somewhat with full authorisation for IFISAs No. The QAA is being used to underwrite entire loans - therefore after drawdown it tries to rebalance or re diversify (so if it underwrote a 500k loan and retail took 100k on drawdown it will try and sell the excess down to its desired level). While this happens it exercises its market sell priority and nobody else can sell - as is happening on a few loans at the moment.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Apr 15, 2016 9:02:24 GMT
There's been £1m+ available in #244 Forth**** Ltd ever since it launched, yet this morning there's nothing left. Either someone took a very big liking to it or (more likely, I feel) the QAA decided not to sell down any more for a bit.
[Edit: someone has now stuck about £6k up for sale]
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bg
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Post by bg on Apr 15, 2016 9:11:12 GMT
There's been £1m+ available in #244 Forth**** Ltd ever since it launched, yet this morning there's nothing left. Either someone took a very big liking to it or (more likely, I feel) the QAA decided not to sell down any more for a bit. [Edit: someone has now stuck about £6k up for sale] I believe one name has bought around £1m of it after redemption of another loan. Good for the market.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Apr 15, 2016 9:18:48 GMT
There's been £1m+ available in #244 Forth**** Ltd ever since it launched, yet this morning there's nothing left. Either someone took a very big liking to it or (more likely, I feel) the QAA decided not to sell down any more for a bit. [Edit: someone has now stuck about £6k up for sale] I believe one name has bought around £1m of it after redemption of another loan. Good for the market. How can you tell that?
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bg
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Post by bg on Apr 15, 2016 9:23:14 GMT
I believe one name has bought around £1m of it after redemption of another loan. Good for the market. How can you tell that? I was having a discussion with them about something else a couple of weeks ago and voiced my concerns about the amount of this loan that was available and it was mentioned that this could happen.
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sqh
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Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
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Post by sqh on Apr 15, 2016 9:53:15 GMT
I was having a discussion with them about something else a couple of weeks ago and voiced my concerns about the amount of this loan that was available and it was mentioned that this could happen. That raises more questions than it answers. Did AC know a big investor was going to buy £1M ? Is the big investor going to hold to term ? Has it been sold to the institutional market ?
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happy
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Post by happy on Apr 15, 2016 10:07:12 GMT
Maybe I am missing something here @butch cassidy I was under the impression the QAA invested amount has been steadily growing over recent weeks so if it is growing how is the QAA stopping MLIA investors selling loan units right now, if anything surely the QAA would have been buying loans units from the SM or somewhere else. As I understand it the only time the QAA will need to exercise it's market sell priority is when it needs to sell units to maintain liquidity, i.e people are selling out of the QAA. When I joined AC last year the SM was pretty much empty bar a few loans and this has only changed since the recdnt flood on new loans, I did not see the QAA stopping the SM back then as pretty anything worth buying got snapped up. So are you saying that the mere existence of the QAA ( and by implication I suppose the GBBA and GEIA as well) is creating an unfair market for MLIA lenders? Personally I do not agree with you if this is your view. I like being able to have a %age of my investment in all the above mentioned accounts for different reasons but as trouble says, when investing in the MLIA I accept that these loans are potentially for TERM. I only invest in terms that I am able to accept the full term, anything shorter is a bonus in my view I don't see this level of liquidity (or lack of) being here for ever, I just hope the FSA help lubricate the market somewhat with full authorisation for IFISAs No. The QAA is being used to underwrite entire loans - therefore after drawdown it tries to rebalance or re diversify (so if it underwrote a 500k loan and retail took 100k on drawdown it will try and sell the excess down to its desired level). While this happens it exercises its market sell priority and nobody else can sell - as is happening on a few loans at the moment. Good point bg, and I see this QAA sell-down is different to traditional underwriters selling down their holdings in that they would not have priority over MLIA investors hence the gripe from some. I still struggle with the issue that it is mainly only the newer loans that have any quanitity of units on the market so if MLIA investors are desperate to sell units in loans they only purchased recently it begs the question why did they buy so much in the first place. I suspect that past market dynamics have lead some lenders with money to invest right now into buying much more than they ever intended to hold long-term, safe (they thought) in the knowledge that they could sell some on when new and potentially more attractive loans came along or simply to diversify further. I see this as a valid issue for these folks. My strategy here is to use the QAA for my soon to be invested cash and accept the lower rate to make sure I don't end up investing i. more of a loan than I am comfortable longer-term just to get a return (I also use the GBBA for other money where my liquidity requirement is lower but still relevant). With my 5 figure investment in AC this does not cost me too much and allows me to progressively build a well diversified MLIA portfolio but I accept that for the bigger players keen to maximise their return now this strategy could end up costing them a lot. It just goes to show what a truely difficult job chris andrewholgate and the AC team have trying to develop a platform that is all things to all investors!
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Post by chris on Apr 15, 2016 10:09:26 GMT
I was having a discussion with them about something else a couple of weeks ago and voiced my concerns about the amount of this loan that was available and it was mentioned that this could happen. That raises more questions than it answers. Did AC know a big investor was going to buy £1M ? Is the big investor going to hold to term ? Has it been sold to the institutional market ? Yes they informed us they were going to do it, I have no idea if they're going to hold to term but presume so, no it's not on the institutional market. This is a large investor who has deposited cash into the platform and placed a manual buy instruction in the MLIA.
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Post by chris on Apr 15, 2016 10:21:18 GMT
No. The QAA is being used to underwrite entire loans - therefore after drawdown it tries to rebalance or re diversify (so if it underwrote a 500k loan and retail took 100k on drawdown it will try and sell the excess down to its desired level). While this happens it exercises its market sell priority and nobody else can sell - as is happening on a few loans at the moment. Good point bg , and I see this QAA sell-down is different to traditional underwriters selling down their holdings in that they would not have priority over MLIA investors hence the gripe from some. I still struggle with the issue that it is mainly only the newer loans that have any quanitity of units on the market so if MLIA investors are desperate to sell units in loans they only purchased recently it begs the question why did they buy so much in the first place. I suspect that past market dynamics have lead some lenders with money to invest right now into buying much more than they ever intended to hold long-term, safe (they thought) in the knowledge that they could sell some on when new and potentially more attractive loans came along or simply to diversify further. I see this as a valid issue for these folks. My strategy here is to use the QAA for my soon to be invested cash and accept the lower rate to make sure I don't end up investing i. more of a loan than I am comfortable longer-term just to get a return (I also use the GBBA for other money where my liquidity requirement is lower but still relevant). With my 5 figure investment in AC this does not cost me too much and allows me to progressively build a well diversified MLIA portfolio but I accept that for the bigger players keen to maximise their return now this strategy could end up costing them a lot. It just goes to show what a truely difficult job chris andrewholgate and the AC team have trying to develop a platform that is all things to all investors! Underwriters have always had some measure of sale priority. They used to have statistical priority as sales were apportioned using random weighting, since September 2015 there is an explicit 85/15 split between the underwriters and MLIA where both are looking to sell, well mathematically it's a little more complex than that but it's in that ballpark depending on the number of MLIA lenders trying to sell and the amount they're trying to sell. This helps the underwriters sell down at a fast enough rate whilst still allowing MLIA investors some measure of liquidity to offload smaller amounts where needed. QAA has had 100% sale priority since launch but it's become apparent it's affecting the market more than we'd like so I'm in the middle of coding a new solution that will let the QAA sell at reduced priority if it chooses to do so. So where there is immediate demand for liquidity it can still take absolute priority but in normal circumstances it will have the option to either join the underwriter pool or the MLIA pool in terms of priority. The QAA is well diversified now so we're happy for it to slowly sell down here and there across the book with no need for priority in those sales. If MLIA lenders need more emergency liquidity than this will let them have then they have the additional option not available to other investment accounts to sell at a discount.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Apr 15, 2016 10:26:50 GMT
If MLIA lenders need more emergency liquidity than this will let them have then they have the additional option not available to other investment accounts to sell at a discount. Chris can you confirm that any purchase (MLIA, QAA, or whatever) would buy a discounted loan part before buying a non discounted loan part. (Seems like a stupid question, but there is a platform out there that doesn't do this!)
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Post by chris on Apr 15, 2016 10:28:27 GMT
If MLIA lenders need more emergency liquidity than this will let them have then they have the additional option not available to other investment accounts to sell at a discount. Chris can you confirm that any purchase (MLIA, QAA, or whatever) would buy a discounted loan part before buying a non discounted loan part. (Seems like a stupid question, but there is a platform out there that doesn't do this!) Yes all accounts do so.
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bg
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Post by bg on Apr 15, 2016 10:32:12 GMT
I still struggle with the issue that it is mainly only the newer loans that have any quanitity of units on the market so if MLIA investors are desperate to sell units in loans they only purchased recently it begs the question why did they buy so much in the first place. I suspect that past market dynamics have lead some lenders with money to invest right now into buying much more than they ever intended to hold long-term, safe (they thought) in the knowledge that they could sell some on when new and potentially more attractive loans came along or simply to diversify further. I see this as a valid issue for these folks. I think some people have issues with the distortion to the market (ie every order should be treated equally). First as a general principle and second as people do like to hold loans they know they can sell easily for a variety of reasons - previously you could look at the amount of loan up for sale and make a judgement call on liquidity. Now its not so easy (or impossible). Its also a bit of an issue for underwriters. Say a £5m loan is underwritten by the QAA for £2m and by traditional underwriters for £3m. The underwriters will try and sell down their holdings but if the QAA can sell £2m ahead of them they could be left holding 100% of what they underwrote for a prolonged period. Hence some of the grumbles. You can't please all of the people all of the time though so these sorts of issues are always going to crop up.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Apr 15, 2016 18:49:09 GMT
It seems that BTL at 7% on AC today is seen by some as not very attractive even though older 7%BTL loans on AC have been pretty much fully subscribed since I joined. I've always been mystified about why some people will invest in such low-rate loans. Some of the old BtL loans were at 50% LTV, so perhaps people really value the improved security compared to 70% LTV loans since there is no PF for those loans. But I'm still mystified by why an investor might prefer one of the current 7% loans -- where they're exposed to default risk -- to a GBBA investment that would produce the same 7% return and have the further benefits of diversified holdings and a PF. Anybody have any thoughts?
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Apr 15, 2016 19:32:30 GMT
It seems that BTL at 7% on AC today is seen by some as not very attractive even though older 7%BTL loans on AC have been pretty much fully subscribed since I joined. I've always been mystified about why some people will invest in such low-rate loans. Some of the old BtL loans were at 50% LTV, so perhaps people really value the improved security compared to 70% LTV loans since there is no PF for those loans. But I'm still mystified by why an investor might prefer one of the current 7% loans -- where they're exposed to default risk -- to a GBBA investment that would produce the same 7% return and have the further benefits of diversified holdings and a PF. Anybody have any thoughts? As samford71 said somewhere there is a difference between yield and return. Btl could also be seen as a slightly different asset class, especially from say commercial or development property.
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