kaya
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,150
Likes: 718
|
Post by kaya on May 19, 2016 9:48:55 GMT
The rate of new property loans appearing is striking, especially when compared to, say, the highly regarded Saving Stream. If FS can manage to attain this rate of deal flow, why not SS? So can we be confident in the quality of these deals? Is the platform robust enough? Are the loan sources good and sound? Should we be worried, or can we invest with confidence?
|
|
huxs
Member of DD Central
Posts: 300
Likes: 218
|
Post by huxs on May 19, 2016 10:00:48 GMT
That is a blooming good question, I have looked at the valuations on FS and in my non-expert view most of the FS loans look ok. They are not flying off the shelf for all the reason's mentioned many times before why the SS model is favoured more than FS.
It would be good to hear from FS how they are winning so much business. But I don't see the risk on these FS loans being much worse than the SS ones.
|
|
merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
Likes: 302
|
Post by merlin on May 19, 2016 10:58:18 GMT
The rate of new property loans appearing is striking, especially when compared to, say, the highly regarded Saving Stream. If FS can manage to attain this rate of deal flow, why not SS? So can we be confident in the quality of these deals? Is the platform robust enough? Are the loan sources good and sound? Should we be worried, or can we invest with confidence? All good questions you raise although I doubt you will get answers from FS. A further issue with this volume of loans hitting this market is the effect on the secondary market which IMHO is suffering something close to a crucifixion. Currently if you urgently need to get your cash out quickly, forget it, unless you get very lucky and offer a 3% discount. However on SS sales on the secondary market seem to take no more than micro seconds.
There are a few more question investors need to ask and top of the list is the current fears being created by the possibility of departure from the EU. If this should happen there is a distinct possibility that property prices may suffer. By how much and when are further questions that need to be asked. Cap this with a possible slowdown of the economy and things get even more interesting. These I fear are times when it pays to be cautious rather than speculative.
|
|
09dolphin
Member of DD Central
Posts: 638
Likes: 866
|
Post by 09dolphin on May 19, 2016 11:14:27 GMT
There seem to be an disproportionate number of loans in the Londonderry area.
Do FS have an agent based there generating them or is it coincidence?
|
|
|
Post by earthbound on May 19, 2016 11:35:38 GMT
I been with FS now for well over 2 years , back to the days of old cars and Rolex watches, and personally I've always liked them and I liked investing in the novelty/smile factor stuff, FS has grown rapidly over the last 6 months, with a lot of PBL loans, whether the quality of the loans is ok will be down to your own DD (or lack of it. . As I know) If I was an outsider looking in right now, I don't think I'd get involved, I think I would hold off and check back in 6 months or so to see how the completing loans are being handled. FS have had a fair few property loans complete In the past with no issues , so this is not new ground to them, but it will be interesting to see whether they have the capacity to deal with many many more larger loans completing in 6 or so months time. There are more fundamentally important issues I think that they also have , which will I suspect add to any future problems they may/may not encounter. edit lot not dearth
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on May 19, 2016 11:36:25 GMT
But I don't see the risk on these FS loans being much worse than the SS ones. In general, I agree. Although, as 09dolphin pointed out, there seem to be a larger proportion of NI loans than I might have expected, especially for a platform based in Portsmouth. I'm also a bit concerned when we see loans like two we've had today, where the borrower effectively has rolled over a previous loan without paying the interest and fees due because the loan either has been replaced by a slightly larger one, or another tranche was added. With these particular loans, the LTV was low on the maturing loans so there's no problem with it increasing slightly for the follow-on loans. But it does make me wonder how long the borrower intends to continue such activity and whether they have a credible exit plan.
|
|
SteveT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,875
Likes: 7,924
|
Post by SteveT on May 19, 2016 11:38:13 GMT
I been with FS now for well over 2 years , back to the days of old cars and Rolex watches, and personally I've always liked them and I liked investing in the novelty/smile factor stuff, FS has grown rapidly over the last 6 months, with a dearth of PBL loans, whether the quality of the loans is ok will be down to your own DD (or lack of it. . As I know) If I was an outsider looking in right now, I don't think I'd get involved, I think I would hold off and check back in 6 months or so to see how the completing loans are being handled. FS have had a fair few property loans complete In the past with no issues , so this is not new ground to them, but it will be interesting to see whether they have the capacity to deal with many many more larger loans completing in 6 or so months time. There are more fundamentally important issues I think that they also have , which will I suspect add to any future problems they may/may not encounter. Hardly a dearth! Quite the opposite.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on May 19, 2016 11:38:58 GMT
There are more fundamentally important issues I think that they also have , which will I suspect add to any future problems they may/may not encounter. earthbound: Can you give us any hints about what you have3in mind?
|
|
|
Post by earthbound on May 19, 2016 11:44:38 GMT
I been with FS now for well over 2 years , back to the days of old cars and Rolex watches, and personally I've always liked them and I liked investing in the novelty/smile factor stuff, FS has grown rapidly over the last 6 months, with a dearth of PBL loans, whether the quality of the loans is ok will be down to your own DD (or lack of it. . As I know) If I was an outsider looking in right now, I don't think I'd get involved, I think I would hold off and check back in 6 months or so to see how the completing loans are being handled. FS have had a fair few property loans complete In the past with no issues , so this is not new ground to them, but it will be interesting to see whether they have the capacity to deal with many many more larger loans completing in 6 or so months time. There are more fundamentally important issues I think that they also have , which will I suspect add to any future problems they may/may not encounter. Hardly a dearth! Quite the opposite. Correct.. Fancy grammar not my strong point.
|
|
|
Post by earthbound on May 19, 2016 11:50:57 GMT
There are more fundamentally important issues I think that they also have , which will I suspect add to any future problems they may/may not encounter. earthbound : Can you give us any hints about what you have3in mind? mikes1531 been there loads of times, recently with you if I remember correctly, do not want to move the thread in the wrong direction
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on May 19, 2016 13:46:21 GMT
A few random observations:
Its hard to assess the quality of many of the FS loans because a) the quality of the valuations tends to be much weaker than seen elsewhere and b) we don't get much commentary regarding borrower financial health and exit plans.
Most FS property backed loans are for projects that from the outset are obviously going to last longer than 6 months, which means the platform has the strain of raising funds to fill the gap of non-rollover lenders every 6 months. The rapid increase in new loans over the last 3 months is likely to create difficulties for FS when they are ready to roll them forward in 3 to 6 months time.
As the supply of loans on FS increases without a commensurate increase in lenders, lenders can increasingly cherry pick, and decline to rollover the poorer quality loans (or at least those with poor quality supporting documents). The Londonderry loans are an example of poor quality supporting documents, and are struggling to re-fill.
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on May 19, 2016 14:28:04 GMT
The bigger issue for me is the obvious sloppiness and general lack of attention for detail by FS in the way some of the loans are presented. (One example of many today's renewal of tranche 4 of the Morayshire loan fails to mention Tranches 6 & 7, the latter only drew down yesterday, and hence the current LTV is wrong.)
Are there more serious consequences of such sloppiness ? Failure to achieve FCA authorisation for example ?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 15:36:01 GMT
FS loan quality varies a fair bit, there are certainly deals being offered at the moment I would not touch at the rates offered. SS has a similar problem but at least the quality of the documentation is normally higher. Even there there are too many I would not touch.
Given the high proportion of property both are offering, I don't think we should worry, just think very carefully if you want the original investment or the roll over. I'd suggest discard 2/3s of the deals.
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on May 19, 2016 16:00:40 GMT
That is a blooming good question, I have looked at the valuations on FS and in my non-expert view most of the FS loans look ok. They are not flying off the shelf for all the reason's mentioned many times before why the SS model is favoured more than FS.
It would be good to hear from FS how they are winning so much business. But I don't see the risk on these FS loans being much worse than the SS ones. There may not be much difference between the types of loan but certainly on the usual metric of cost there is a significant one, FS charges a minimum of 2.4% per month before fees, giving a APR of upwards of 33%, Savings Stream charges 1.5% per month including costs. (although it doesn't explicitly say that the lender does not pay fees, merely that " a fair margin as the administration costs that are associated with sourcing new projects for investment, and ensuring all property is secured with a legal charge, are substantial.") So taking that as face value would give an APR of 19.5%. Therefore although it is fair to assume that anyone taking a FS loan probably does not have access to normal sources of finance, whereas the difference for SS borrowers is not as significant, although still fairly substantial. Make of that whatever you will in the general context of the platforms before looking at any specific loan.
|
|
t
Posts: 77
Likes: 7
|
Post by t on May 19, 2016 16:04:45 GMT
I've sold everything ill take a look in few months to see if my gut feeling was correct
|
|