ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Aug 18, 2017 17:35:20 GMT
Don't forget the loss of interest, the total loss on £750 is £304.76 for me. I was being "kind" not mentioning loss of interest ..................................... (resolutely refuse to use smiley face here) SO,
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 1,835
|
Post by littleoldlady on Aug 18, 2017 17:50:13 GMT
Don't forget the loss of interest, the total loss on £750 is £304.76 for me. I don't think you can lose something which you never had. What you have lost is the opportunity cost, which is about 1% pa (safe) or more with risk attached.
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Aug 18, 2017 21:23:05 GMT
I think, perhaps, my point is being missed. I only had a K so have only lost £134.24 Capital, but there's principles here.
There was a lot of smoke and mirrors around this Loan and we've been turned over by someone. It will could be a LOT more next time.I am still constantly amazed to read " Oh well, my fault, I've learned a lesson" etc, etc. No it's not, why do you all just accept it? I repeat, "You have been turned over."
Sorry, I just don't understand that accepting attitude, must be my Oz upbringing. Cheerio. I think considering this was one of Fundingsecures first forays into property based assets, an 87% return is, all in all, not a bad result, I certainly do not feel like i have been turned over, P****d about? yes. But not turned over. I will be more than happy if FS show us that they have learned from this loan, and apply the knowledge to future loans, at the moment i am nearly out of FS and have no near term intention of returning...... Unless they can show that they are willing to apply some decent Due diligence to the tosh they keep offering.
|
|
|
Post by bollidear on Aug 19, 2017 9:18:29 GMT
In all the years in P2P, having gone the rounds with failed platforms (YS, Danesfield, Squirel etc) I have come to be grateful for any recovery at all. I've never once thought "Ooo....I've lost out on 82p interest). The risk in lending, is a loss of 100% capital and interest - I now accept that and am content with all recoveries. Indeed, with Zopa I actually have an income stream from collections going back years - some where no recovery had been made for several years and now they are paying. However, the issue is where our cash is loaned recklessly based upon "erroneous" security and underwriting.
Fundingsecure are clearly inexperienced at establishing risk and impotent in enforcing collections. Now cast you minds back to why Yes Secure failed - those exact same two reasons.
The valuations on FS are not only fanciful - but seemingly deluded and entirely misleading. I have a simple rule that I follow now; for it to be an error there must be an equal number of valuations that are undervalued and for it to be reckless and misleading, the valuations are usually overestimated. From that, I can determine the efficacy of the P2P platform.
In relation to administrations - the fact is that it's all a sham. The administrators appoint "agents" to assess assets and seek a sale. The agents are the same mates they always use and their "buyers" are the same ones they have in their contacts books. In my own experience, the buyers were entirely unsuitable, knew nothing of the company other than what was stated in the 2 page sales pack and only wanted to look at what they could strip and sell on within 14 days. The administrator has no interest whatsoever of recovering anything at all - their only objective is to string out the process and screw as much money as they can for themselves working at an hourly rate of £300-£400. So when administrators appear, the reality is that any tangible value is actually diminished - although there is little we can do about it. So if a loan is 70% LTV - assume its 100%. If it goes belly up, assume a 20% recovery over time and put it down to experience.
We have come to realise that the P2P arena is too crowded and some blood letting need to take place. People, stupidly, look for the highest rates or "perceived" security of loans. What you need to look at is the platform. The absence of timely, meaningful and accurate updates is a clue to what taking place back of house. The common theme of inflated valuations and an ineffectual collections process should help determine whether your platform of choice is a safe pair of hands.
Martin and others are correct - the return on this car crash was ok in the end, but having caused the car crash FS have a lot to answer for and the abject lack of "Yes, we got this badly wrong because......" is the single most worrying reason why I'm pulling everything out as quickly as I can. I used to think property was the most risky side of FS - but the most recent updates show that even a train set has been overvalued!
If, on the other hand, you are happy with a year on year 7% interest return - invest in Royal London Sterling Extra Yield Bond within an ISA and avoid people who "play" with your cash.
If you made the mistake and have gambled your IFSA allowance wth FS, bear in mind that you will need to get every penny out of FS in this ISA year, to achieve a "Cancelled Subscription". Simply drawing the funds down has no bearing on the allowance used and will prevent you from using your £20k allowance elsewhere. Given the likelihood of at least one unredeemed loan in your portfolio and the slovenly collections/auction/administration's processes - you can kiss your allowance (and most likely your cash) goodbye.
Happy days.
|
|
Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,961
Likes: 1,680
|
Post by Steerpike on Aug 19, 2017 9:19:28 GMT
Were there no PGs in place for this loan? Can the borrower not be pursued for the shortfall? 18/08/2017 ... We are continuing to work with our lawyers to pursue the balance from the borrower, including interest. However they believe the chances of any further receipts will be low.
|
|
Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,961
Likes: 1,680
|
Post by Steerpike on Aug 19, 2017 9:22:31 GMT
I think that this loan has resulted in the largest shortfall to date for FS, £33,559.20, I wonder how long this record will stand and which loan will be the next to win lose the gold?
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Aug 19, 2017 9:27:52 GMT
Beginning of the end.
I await to hear that FS are vigorously pursuing the "Professional Valuer", s/he of the utmost integrity.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Aug 19, 2017 9:42:50 GMT
I think, perhaps, my point is being missed. I only had a K so have only lost £134.24 Capital, but there's principles here.
There was a lot of smoke and mirrors around this Loan and we've been turned over by someone. It will could be a LOT more next time.I am still constantly amazed to read " Oh well, my fault, I've learned a lesson" etc, etc. No it's not, why do you all just accept it? I repeat, "You have been turned over."
Sorry, I just don't understand that accepting attitude, must be my Oz upbringing. Cheerio. I think considering this was one of Fundingsecures first forays into property based assets, an 87% return is, all in all, not a bad result, I certainly do not feel like i have been turned over, P****d about? yes. But not turned over. I will be more than happy if FS show us that they have learned from this loan, and apply the knowledge to future loans, at the moment i am nearly out of FS and have no near term intention of returning...... Unless they can show that they are willing to apply some decent Due diligence to the tosh they keep offering. You're a far more charitable fellow than me martin44! A Professional Valuation ten months ago says the boatyard is worth £480K, plus another £180K is spent refurbishing the slipway, and it sells for only £225K, and you don't feel you've been turned over?!Anyone ascertained who the buyer is yet?
|
|
merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
Likes: 302
|
Post by merlin on Aug 19, 2017 9:43:52 GMT
I think that this loan has resulted in the largest shortfall to date for FS, £33,559.20, I wonder how long this record will stand and which loan will be the next to win lose the gold? Steerpike My suggestion is keep a close watch on the Speedboat. I am poised for a five figure hit on that one!
|
|
btc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 193
Likes: 132
|
Post by btc on Aug 19, 2017 9:44:29 GMT
Let's see if FS will write about this loan in their next newsletter
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 1,835
|
Post by littleoldlady on Aug 19, 2017 9:47:52 GMT
From my experience in p2p property lending I have come up with criterion for use by myself: If the loan defaults what are the chances of finding a buyer at 80%+ of valuation? (The 80% is to allow for fees). ISTM that you can rank properties on a scale of likelihood against this criterion, from more likely to less likely:
Residential Commercial Development Non-standard Planning hope
Within each broad category is a spectrum of risk and each case must be judged on its merits. If I had been using this criterion I would have avoided the boatyard and the turbine on FS and all development loans on various platforms. however I would have taken much longer to get fully invested and my average return would have been lower.
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 1,835
|
Post by littleoldlady on Aug 19, 2017 9:48:41 GMT
I think that this loan has resulted in the largest shortfall to date for FS, £33,559.20, I wonder how long this record will stand and which loan will be the next to win lose the gold? Steerpike My suggestion is keep a close watch on the Speedboat. I am poised for a five figure hit on that one! Chicken feed compared to the NI turbine.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Aug 19, 2017 10:03:41 GMT
That will be interesting btc!
In all honesty folks, as I keep saying, to stop this rot we need to Complain. Once you've made your first Complaint you have your template for easy, future regular use.
As I understand it you have to Complain to The Platform first.
If The Platform's response is unsatisfactory or non-existent then you can Complain to The FCA and RICS, and it wouldn't hurt to Complain to your MP too.
Anyone out there with contacts in the meedja? This is a great story they would love to cover and expose I'd have thought.
The Valuations Scam is a massive, deceptive industry and we really do need to band together and Complain. And keep Complaining until this issue gets the full visibility it requires and some affirmative action to clean it up for good.
Or you can just put up with it. Which, ISTM, many of you are happy to do so? (Shakes head and shuffles over to fridge for a nice, calming coldie)
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on Aug 19, 2017 10:19:29 GMT
I think that this loan has resulted in the largest shortfall to date for FS, £33,559.20, I wonder how long this record will stand and which loan will be the next to win lose the gold? Steerpike My suggestion is keep a close watch on the Speedboat. I am poised for a five figure hit on that one! I currently have exposure to three distressed loans on FS, the two speedboats where I remain hopeful of a full recovery including all interest eventually, and the £1m Wind Turbine loan, which as littleoldlady says could result in a huge hit (but equally well, though far less likely, it could be a full recovery). It won't be the next loan to crystallise a loss, but I think the £350k Wimbledon Construction 3rd charge loan could well crystallise a significantly larger loss than the boatyard. ( My post of a couple of weeks ago explains my reasoning). There are misleading valuations out there, but the major issue in my mind is LTV's are normally stated against OMV (or worse if its a LTGDV) when the OMV valuation is not relevant in a distressed sale situation. To be sure of a full recovery it is best to restrict lending to loans with a LTV wrt a distressed sale valuation of less than (say) 90%, or if a distressed sale valuation is not available to less than 60% LTV wrt OMV. Residual value valuations need particular care, as they are not valuing the worse case firesale of the land to a landbank investor (which is what the recovery on default will most likely be). Even then, I get it wrong occaisonaly as for example AC #330 will see me take a 4 figure hit - the distressed sale value of the part complete single property development is far lower than even I had allowed for. P2P lending is risky, and as I've said many times on here the headline yields of 10-13% are in part compensation for future capital losses. Its perhaps also worth remembering that many of the defaulted so called "secured" loans on ThinCats have resulted in close to 100% loss of capital, and that AC are still battling to recover anything from the last of the 2014 bridging loans (Ips/Epp) from the introducer who dumped all his dross onto AC.
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on Aug 19, 2017 10:37:17 GMT
Anyone out there with contacts in the meedja? This is a great story they would love to cover and expose I'd have thought. Yes, a number of media outlets including some of the broadsheets routinely read this forum. However the level of losses incurred by p2p investors over the last ten years have been miniscule, and whilst the furore in the media last year over Lendy's PBL064 (& PBL056) concerning the borrower's background was "interesting", it still does not equate (yet) to a lender having actually lost money. There will be examples in the coming years which will get reported in the national media when losses have occured, across a variety of platforms, where the original decision to lend or the information presented to lenders turns out to be questionable. ozboy , if you have evidence of malpractise with the boatyard loan, that you feel would stand up in court, please PM me the details and I'll ensure it gets seen by the team at the FCA monitoring p2p (and specifcally the team responsible for ongoing monitoring of FS). Or, if you fancy a day trip to London (Canary Wharf) I may be able to facilitate a meeting for you to present the evidence in person.
|
|