nick
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Post by nick on Sept 26, 2017 12:28:11 GMT
Are you sure that you can do that? I thought that investment income would fall under non-trading income, so you would not be able to account for it as a trading loss. It would, however, be able to take it into account when calculating the non-trading income. This was my understanding as well, maybe it depends on who your accountant is I stand corrected! It seems my understanding was over simplistic and that you are correct. On reflection it probably a stretch to made an argument that the investments were made as part of your existing trade, in which case the income/loss would likely be taxed as non-investment income/losses (probably under loan relationship rules). Prior to 1 April 2017, non-trading losses (and specifically loan relationship transactions) can only be relieved against income/gains of a similar nature (in the same year or carried back one year or carried forward). However, from 1 April 2017, trading and non-trade deficits can be set against total profits and the distinction between trading and non-trading losses becomes irrelevant in respect of losses (although remains relevant for other non-loss reliefs). The catch is that the use of current year losses will be restricted to an annual £5m allowance. KPMG provide a reasonably brief summary of the new loss relief regime: home.kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2017/03/reform-of-ct-loss-relief.html
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duck
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Post by duck on Sept 26, 2017 16:31:04 GMT
Thanks for your replies nick most useful. This begs the question as to when a loan is eligible to be classed as a 'loss'. With personal accounts SAIM1220 et al give clear guidance as to when a claim can be made (either by the platform stating or by self deeming to irrecoverable), is it not reasonable to take the same approach to classify loans in the same way, for loans held by a Ltd Co? Obviously adjustments will be made if/when recovery is made but since this will be shown as 'income' when payments are made CT will be due anyway.
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nick
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Post by nick on Sept 26, 2017 20:36:02 GMT
Thanks for your replies nick most useful. This begs the question as to when a loan is eligible to be classed as a 'loss'. With personal accounts SAIM1220 et al give clear guidance as to when a claim can be made (either by the platform stating or by self deeming to irrecoverable), is it not reasonable to take the same approach to classify loans in the same way, for loans held by a Ltd Co? Obviously adjustments will be made if/when recovery is made but since this will be shown as 'income' when payments are made CT will be due anyway. The short answer is that the tax will following the accounting treatment and there is no specific guidance in dealing with loan impairments beyond that loans should be written down to their recoverable value with any impairment written to profit or loss (ie the loss). The recoverable value is subject to judgement, but should be based on reasonable assumptions and should be specific to each loan (i.e. a general impairment provision such as a 20% haircut across your whole loan book would not be allowed as it is far to general). This allows a far more common sense approach in reaching a reasonable figure versus the very prescriptive guidance of SAIM1220 for personal taxation. Unlike SAIM1220, the loss recognised should be the expected unrecoverable amount (eg after considering security held) rather than a full write-off of the outstanding loan balance. Your main issue is likely a lack of history of the outcome of previous defaults/losses to come up with some reasonable assumptions. Probably the best approach would be to assume a certain write-off of loans in default based on LTV, eg full or partial write-off of anything above 50% LTV with further adjustments if the likely outcome of recovery action is known. The key is to be consistent in applying whatever methodology you settle on and that it is reasonable given all the evidence available. This is obviously easier if you have historic data, but HMRC are unlikely to challenge loss values if you are able to demonstrate that you employed a reasonable, fair and consistent approach in determining the losses booked. Another thing to take into consideration is that I'm fairly certain that any post balance sheet events are adjusting events, ie if a loan defaults after your year-end, that is taken as evidence that the loan was impaired at the balance sheet date - ie you can recognise losses on defaults that occur after your year-end (a trade debtor that goes bust after year-end is the classic example always cited as an adjusting event and see no reason why the same accounting treatment would not apply to loans or any asset). Any revision in impairment values in future periods will flow to the P&L in those periods (ie if you recover more than your original assessment, then the difference will be reversed out next period).
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duck
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Post by duck on Sept 27, 2017 4:51:56 GMT
Thank you again nick for such a clear response, much appreciated. My Company Year ends in a couple of days time and I have started to pull the figures together before I sit down with my accountants to go through the detail. Whilst I will follow their advice (kept me 'safe' for a lot of years now) I do like to have some knowledge before the discussions start.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 27, 2017 6:52:41 GMT
I elected to adopt the new IFRS9 accounting standard when I repurposed an existing (dormant) company for P2P lending, so I make an allowance for expected impairments across the whole loan book at the end of each company year (method described here). Any aggregate difference between expected and actual impairments in following years flows back to the P&L so it's simply a matter of timing. As nick says above, the key thing I think is to take a logical approach, document it (in the notes to your accounts) and follow it consistently.
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Post by jackpease on Sept 27, 2017 7:01:47 GMT
My Company Year ends in a couple of days time and I have started to pull the figures together before I sit down with my accountants to go through the detail. Whilst I will follow their advice (kept me 'safe' for a lot of years now) I do like to have some knowledge before the discussions start. With platforms such as FC you MUST take screenshots of your balances at year end - balances on particular days in the past do not show up in statements. This will freak out your accountant because they need a balance of your accounts at year end. Of course what they don't need to know is that that balance can retrospectively go up and down as adjustments come and go! Jack P
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duck
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Post by duck on Sept 27, 2017 7:47:43 GMT
........This will freak out your accountant because they need a balance of your accounts at year end. Of course what they don't need to know is that that balance can retrospectively go up and down as adjustments come and go! Jack P My accountants have got used to my strange 'additions' over the years (my Ltd Co and I as an individual have been investing for over 5 years now) they even get copies of my spreadsheets 'for information', strangely they decided not to check +60K lines on my Bondora sheet!
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Sept 27, 2017 8:16:55 GMT
My Company Year ends in a couple of days time and I have started to pull the figures together before I sit down with my accountants to go through the detail. Whilst I will follow their advice (kept me 'safe' for a lot of years now) I do like to have some knowledge before the discussions start. With platforms such as FC you MUST take screenshots of your balances at year end - balances on particular days in the past do not show up in statements. This will freak out your accountant because they need a balance of your accounts at year end. Of course what they don't need to know is that that balance can retrospectively go up and down as adjustments come and go! Jack P Second this, but this should be the norm for all accounts, personal and company
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Post by elephantrosie on Feb 15, 2018 10:48:46 GMT
May I ask which bank do you guys use to invest in p2p as a ltd co?
I tried tsb and was told that they are too small a bank to allow this.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 15, 2018 11:03:11 GMT
Santander, but they were A&L Commercial Banking when I first opened the account 10+ years ago.
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duck
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Post by duck on Feb 15, 2018 11:54:58 GMT
HSBC but that company account was set up many years ago with the transition into P2P only taking place over the last couple of years.
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Post by elephantrosie on Feb 15, 2018 16:13:55 GMT
Thanks steve and duck!
Is it worth it to pay £5.50 for the monthly account fee with hsbc?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 15, 2018 17:10:47 GMT
My Santander business account is free
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Post by elephantrosie on Feb 15, 2018 21:09:03 GMT
My Santander business account is free are you still within the 18 months free period? because i just checked and santendar charges 7.50 quids after 18 months.
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bababill
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Post by bababill on Feb 15, 2018 23:44:51 GMT
May I ask which bank do you guys use to invest in p2p as a ltd co? I tried tsb and was told that they are too small a bank to allow this. UK government/ AKA Natwest. www.natwest.com
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