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Post by aloanatlast on Apr 23, 2014 6:23:50 GMT
I would imagine they've never fully defined the order of priority for Autobid sales, just as they never have for manual sales. This means query results are returned by the database in whatever order they happen to come, which won't be totally systematic in any obvious way, but won't be totally random either.
So what should the order be? First come first served would be natural, but it's not really consistent with the habit of knocking parts off sale.
Also, if there were a fully-defined queue, users would then want to be able to see where they were in the queue, etc.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Apr 23, 2014 6:45:51 GMT
FIFO, like ratesetterr, would be obvious and fair, if you delist and relist then you lose your place in queue, like ratesetterr. This would, of course, give a advantage to sell bots, so I could make a case for random.
LIFO, if we really have that, wins no fairness prizes at all. However, like you, I suspect FC haven't a clue, or haven't even realised it is an issue ... Yes they could be manipulating the stats, but I don't think they are that capable ( of conceiving, nor implementing .. Except by accident).
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fasty
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Post by fasty on Apr 23, 2014 12:24:20 GMT
Fully agree with GSV3MIaC about fairness.
However... the selfish side of me is very happy to have disposed of the last of my loan parts that I had previously considered were "utterly unsellable". I had felt "well stitched up" when FC massively increased minimum bid rates immediately after I had completed my initial investment. Wiser now.
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blender
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Post by blender on Apr 23, 2014 15:00:07 GMT
I was informed by an expert long ago on another forum that when the loan parts for sale are displayed for manual purchase the order of display of identical offers was changed each time it was presented. However, that does not seem to be the case with Autobid on the SM, dealing only with par offers and looking for thresholds rather than the best offer, where the empirical evidence suggests that Autobid prefers the freshest meat. But since for most of FC's lifetime any half decent parts at par were snapped up quickly, questions of fairness have not been relevant. Only during the MBR crisis of June 2013 has there been a large queue of unsold loan parts at par, and that did not last long. It is only during these last few months of shortage of lender cash that fairness has become an issue for Autobid on the SM.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Apr 25, 2014 18:39:04 GMT
LIFO, if we really have that, wins no fairness prizes at all. We have it. Evidence shows we have it, sadly. Just took another batch of loan parts off and relisted them straight away. Were at par, with around 6 days left to run. Not moving. 22 parts gone in minutes to 2 autobidders. Obviously the other conclusion is that if I'd just waited for those few minutes, they'd have sold anyway ... yeah. Right.
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fasty
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Post by fasty on Apr 25, 2014 19:00:47 GMT
Definitely true, mikeb.
However there seems to be a plethora of (presumably newbie) lenders out there at the moment with an insatiable desire to loan their money to someone - perhaps anyone - at almost any rate. Even most of my loan parts which I had been offering at a premium for many weeks have been eagerly scooped up, and auctions seem have been driven down to the lowest rates I've seen for many months. I'm thinking of having a "bidding holiday" until rates pick up again!
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 25, 2014 22:04:34 GMT
LIFO, if we really have that, wins no fairness prizes at all. We have it. Evidence shows we have it, sadly. Just took another batch of loan parts off and relisted them straight away. Were at par, with around 6 days left to run. Not moving. 22 parts gone in minutes to 2 autobidders. Obviously the other conclusion is that if I'd just waited for those few minutes, they'd have sold anyway ... yeah. Right. Astounding. The logic in that is ? Bizarre. Referring back to some earlier posts on this subject - is it a bit like massaging NHS waiting list time statistics ?
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fasty
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Post by fasty on Apr 25, 2014 22:16:51 GMT
I suspect the logic was never intentional. When the code was initially written and the SM was small, it would be more difficult to notice any difference.
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dorset
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Post by dorset on Apr 26, 2014 9:42:37 GMT
Yes, its clearly operating on LIFO. I have de-listed six loan parts at par that had been sitting around for about 4 days and then re-listed and within one hour five had gone to Autobid. At least we now all know.
It would of course be much fairer and save us all time to operate on a FIFO basis.
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Post by oldatheist on Apr 26, 2014 13:49:59 GMT
I've just offloaded all my longer term loans. I started by listing 33 one evening and 21 of those went quite quickly and the rest sat there for a day, so re listed the remainder and about 5 went within seconds. Repeated that process 3 more times and all have now all gone.
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 26, 2014 14:37:16 GMT
I've just offloaded all my longer term loans. I started by listing 33 one evening and 21 of those went quite quickly and the rest sat there for a day, so re listed the remainder and about 5 went within seconds. Repeated that process 3 more times and all have now all gone. at par, at premium, or mix ?
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Post by oldatheist on Apr 26, 2014 18:45:44 GMT
Most at par. I had a couple with a premium which went early on and were obviously manual purchases.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on May 7, 2014 18:13:48 GMT
So ... at the tail end of this thread forum.fundingcircle.com/forum/all-about-funding-circle/news-updates-and-general-info/8498-liquidityFC confirm that loans on secondary market are sold in random order24 hours later FC confirm that loans on secondary market are NOW sold in random order after a change, but may not have been in past. What a difference a day makes. I think this is the nearest we'll get to an admission that the auto bid/selling queue has been operating in an unintended manner for a while, leading to the observed behaviour. But hopefully, now fixed. If anyone has any success from the mass delist/relist trick as of this ...please shout up!
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fasty
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Post by fasty on May 7, 2014 18:17:39 GMT
An update on the issue of apparent LIFO priority of SM sales: After a bit of heckling disturbed the silence of the other place, FC emitted :
"...we checked in again and have been told that a change was recently made in the code to ensure that autobid always picks up loans parts randomly in all situations. So it may have been the case that you noticed an anomaly but this shouldn't be the case going forward..."
I can't validate this, since understanding what was happening I managed to get rid off all my junk less desirable loan parts.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on May 7, 2014 20:47:37 GMT
Yep, nothing for sale at Par here either, although if rates keep heading up, I may be revisiting that. 8>. As we suspected, 'c0ck up' rather than 'conspiracy', at least so FC claim (and I doubt they could =deliberately= code LIFO with two hands and a big mirror anyway). I suppose we could see if 'average time to sell (at par)' takes the expected hit, going to random, although I'm not sure Fc collect/publish that anymore?
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