locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 10, 2016 15:47:49 GMT
Sorry to ask perhaps an awkward question but if BM actually return (only) 7% after fees, why would I choose them over the 6.7% available at ZOPA with their FCA authorization, much larger size (more established/less likely to fail) and more likely/sooner to be ISA'able? Zopa has a 1% sell out fee so that would reduce the return depending upon your specific requirements.
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fp
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Post by fp on Aug 10, 2016 17:03:53 GMT
Sorry to ask perhaps an awkward question but if BM actually return (only) 7% after fees, why would I choose them over the 6.7% available at ZOPA with their FCA authorization, much larger size (more established/less likely to fail) and more likely/sooner to be ISA'able? Why get 6.7% from Zopa for high risk when you can get 12-15% on such as SS, FS, MT etc? I'm no expert, but I would be more inclined to compare this to the Zopa classic, which gives an estimated return of 4.3%
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 11, 2016 6:23:35 GMT
Diversification. BondMason gives you exposure to property, businesses and invoice discounting; Zopa is personal loans, so a perfect match to invest in both.
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 11, 2016 17:25:38 GMT
paul123 - a fair question. Firstly, Zopa has done a lot for P2P Lending - they were one of the first P2P Lending companies in the UK, and our lawyer helped to set-up Zopa. So we wouldn't talk them down, and they have proven to be one of the more sensible operators over time. You could do a lot worse than invest some of your capital through Zopa. To answer your question, there are probably 3 key things to consider: 1. Alignment: we only operate on the investors' (lenders) side of the table. We don't have relationships with brokers or borrowers to manage, so our alignment to our clients' needs is stronger. 2. Loan types: we don't invest (lend) into unsecured consumer lending. We have a preference for secured and asset-backed lending; so the risk-return profile is very different. Although you may end up with a similar return, the variance may be much greater - for example, the long-run equity risk premium from the stock market is c.5.0% p.a.; but we wouldn't consider our target of 7.0% p.a. from diversified direct lending to be as volatile or risky as the stock market. 3. Diversification and platform diligence: we enable you to deploy capital across a large number of opportunities quickly; and we also spread this risk across a number of carefully diligenced platforms operators. So your exposure to a single operator is reduced.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Aug 11, 2016 17:28:02 GMT
So what is the essential difference between BM and a p2p investment trust? Not in terms of company structure, gearing etc, but in terms of investment performance. Don't both vehicles invest in a selection of loans on various platforms (with the exception of the FC IT).
Is the only difference cost, and the fact that they invest in unsecured loans as well as secured loans?
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Aug 11, 2016 17:43:53 GMT
So what is the essential difference between BM and a p2p investment trust? Not in terms of company structure, gearing etc, but in terms of investment performance. Don't both vehicles invest in a selection of loans on various platforms (with the exception of the FC IT). Is the only difference cost, and the fact that they invest in unsecured loans as well as secured loans? You don't own the underlying loan parts in an IT. You're also exposed to price fluctuations of ITs based on nothing more than market sentiment. i.e. ITs can trade at a discount to NAV which means that you could end up selling for a lot less than you bought for because the market is negative on P2P in general. Market whim wouldn't affect BM at all and your loan parts would be worth exactly what you paid for them assuming all else is equal. Happy to be corrected by those with more knowledge.
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 11, 2016 17:57:38 GMT
locutus - you are exactly right; share price volatility and discounts vs. NAV are the two biggest differences between BondMason and the listed trusts. We wrote a (slightly cheeky) article comparing BondMason to the ITs ( link here) It may also be worth considering that with BondMason you get daily reporting and more visibility over the 1-1 nature of your holdings (i.e. its not an opaque pool of capital).
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 11, 2016 20:45:34 GMT
Well there doesn't seem to be any history or transaction list just a current snapshot so it is pretty much opaque. There doesn't even seem to be a history of money added to or taken out of the platform. Not so much daily reporting as 'today' reporting. "history" - the history of your performance and current balance sheet is set out in your dashboard. "transaction list" - there is a list of all your current holdings accessible via the "View all your investments" link. The investment trusts only provide aggregated charts, with a few breakdowns. "cash flows in and out" - this is being added. The Investment Trusts do this at the fund level - I'm not sure what they provide you at the individual level. "not so much daily reporting" - the data is updated every day (contingent upon data from each underlying platform); this is in contrast with the Investment Trusts that provide a monthly fact-sheet, often 1-2+ weeks after month end. So I think it is fair to say that our reporting is more frequent, more immediate and more transparent than the Investment Trusts. Although I'm very happy to be proven wrong if you can show me an Investment Trust that displays a break down for every Client's individual holding at the individual loan level, and which is updated daily.
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Post by propman on Aug 12, 2016 13:20:50 GMT
Am I right in thinking that there are strong "Collective" elements to investing in BM not present in most P2Ps. In particular, following the introduction of its recent software, parts of investors loans will be exchanged for others to get the overall position closer to an allocation of all loans held by the platform (subject to minimum loan size). There is no direct relationship between an investor and the borrower (or indeed the platform / arranger who administers the loan and sold it to BM). Instead, there is a contractual arrangement with a trustee company that holds the receivables (or alternative structured assets from some platforms) for the benefit of the investors, agreeing to allocate an investors share of any repayments for the benefit of the investor concerned, while this right may be sold on to another investor on the initial investors behalf.
this allows a rapid allocation to a diversified portfolio, but no right to retain any specific receivable.
It would be interesting to know how BM would respond if the target return fails to be achievable as a result of reduced interest rates. I believe that this may occur if a significant number of the P2P platforms utilised by BM were to introduce ISAs or perhaps even significant competitors to them.
In addition, please would you explain what happens with loans in arrears. Will these remain with the investors holding them when they fall into arrears (or after an agreed rectification period)? Or might these be reallocated to equalise the losses or returns between investors?
- PM
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 12, 2016 16:08:33 GMT
There is a contract attached to each receivable, and I don't think BM can do anything with it once it has been assigned; I'm not a lawyer but that's how I read it. As the buyer I can sell it, but BM have no right to take it off me and re-allocate. But interesting questions.
From the Agreement:
'The Seller shall not assign, transfer or otherwise dispose of your rights or obligations under this agreement.'
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david42
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Post by david42 on Aug 12, 2016 18:47:03 GMT
Now that BondMason have added the new feature to speed up initial investment by diversifying our existing loans into newer ones, I would expect that, if rates fall over time, our existing holdings will get taken off us and we will get diversified into newer loans with lower average rates.
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 15, 2016 10:00:57 GMT
Am I right in thinking that there are strong "Collective" elements to investing in BM not present in most P2Ps. In particular, following the introduction of its recent software, parts of investors loans will be exchanged for others to get the overall position closer to an allocation of all loans held by the platform (subject to minimum loan size). There is no direct relationship between an investor and the borrower (or indeed the platform / arranger who administers the loan and sold it to BM). Instead, there is a contractual arrangement with a trustee company that holds the receivables (or alternative structured assets from some platforms) for the benefit of the investors, agreeing to allocate an investors share of any repayments for the benefit of the investor concerned, while this right may be sold on to another investor on the initial investors behalf.
this allows a rapid allocation to a diversified portfolio, but no right to retain any specific receivable.
It would be interesting to know how BM would respond if the target return fails to be achievable as a result of reduced interest rates. I believe that this may occur if a significant number of the P2P platforms utilised by BM were to introduce ISAs or perhaps even significant competitors to them.
In addition, please would you explain what happens with loans in arrears. Will these remain with the investors holding them when they fall into arrears (or after an agreed rectification period)? Or might these be reallocated to equalise the losses or returns between investors?
- PM "collective elements" - I understand the point, but we've spent a long time building software to solve this for this issue. A couple of key aspects are: (1) that you do have a direct 1-1 relationship with every position you hold (it may be other clients are exposed to the same underlying single loan, but your actions aren't impacted by theirs and vice versa); and (2) you retain sufficient control over your day to day management of your holdings - (e.g) you can alter your investment settings, sell or add more funds at any point on any day, and in any direction. "specific receivable" - yes, you do have the right to a specific Receivable in every case. Please click the link next to your holding to see the legal doc relating to that Receivable reference. "target return" - there two points here: (1) can our clients continue to get this: we feel 7.0% +/- 0.5% is a reasonable long-term sustainable target based on good credit disciplines. (2) how P2P platforms may respond to over supply of (ISA) capital: we've already seen the over-supply of capital problem for specific platforms, who have reduced their lending disciplines as a result. Just because you have more investor capital, doesn't mean the credit quality has improved. We would be very wary of any platform that does this, and likely not invest through those that reduce lending rates just because they have more investors. "arrears" - yes, they are 'frozen' with each investor. In these scenarios, we do everything we can to chase down that debtor for the benefit of our client(s) - this is where our alignment to our client's interest is very important. Non-performing loans are not reallocated amongst clients. "reallocation of losses" - no, we don't reallocate losses.
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 15, 2016 10:10:26 GMT
Now that BondMason have added the new feature to speed up initial investment by diversifying our existing loans into newer ones, I would expect that, if rates fall over time, our existing holdings will get taken off us and we will get diversified into newer loans with lower average rates. Based on your investment settings, the driving factors are to aim for diversification over time, to achieve the target return of 7.0%+. Please don't assume that higher rates are always 'better'. Return doesn't come with out risk - when we look at the data, the 3 defaulted loans (out of 600+) had interest rates of 15.39%, 12.68% and 10.13% respectively. The objective with BondMason is to predictably (and boringly) enable all clients to get 7.0% p.a. year after year...
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Post by propman on Aug 15, 2016 10:53:49 GMT
I understand that there is a specific allocation of the receivables to each investor at any point in time. What David & I were saying is that these can be altered by BM at any time. I agree that increased rate will often be obtained at the cost of increased default risk. While 7% may well be obtainable over the long term. But market rates do change. If the whole market is generating loans 2% cheaper than previously, then BM will be forced to accept a lower return. As a lender I would like to retain my existing investments that were purchased at a level I was happy with, and might choose not to invest further until the market improves. Are you saying that I could set my plan to opt out of the portfolio reallocation? If so, would this just be when not investing, or could I retain this when choosing to reinvest further funds?
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Post by stevefindlay on Aug 15, 2016 16:48:30 GMT
I understand that there is a specific allocation of the receivables to each investor at any point in time. What David & I were saying is that these can be altered by BM at any time. I agree that increased rate will often be obtained at the cost of increased default risk. While 7% may well be obtainable over the long term. But market rates do change. If the whole market is generating loans 2% cheaper than previously, then BM will be forced to accept a lower return. As a lender I would like to retain my existing investments that were purchased at a level I was happy with, and might choose not to invest further until the market improves. Are you saying that I could set my plan to opt out of the portfolio reallocation? If so, would this just be when not investing, or could I retain this when choosing to reinvest further funds? "As a lender I would like to retain my existing investments that were purchased at a level I was happy with, and might choose not to invest further until the market improves" You won't have investments replaced. If you have chosen to, you may have your positions reduced to get to 2% to 1% and then 0.5% allocations. But you keep the original loan exposure. You can always notify us to tell us you don't want the increased diversification at any time. "Are you saying that I could set my plan to opt out of the portfolio reallocation? If so, would this just be when not investing, or could I retain this when choosing to reinvest further funds?" Our expectation is that you can make this election at any time.
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