pikestaff
Member of DD Central
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Post by pikestaff on Apr 23, 2014 7:17:01 GMT
I agree with Andrew that some of the comments have been inappropriate and unnecessary - veering toward personal attacks, and impugning the integrity of individuals, the sponsor, the borrower, and the platform. I have been puzzled by the absence of the moderators.
Be that as it may, I would like to remind everybody that the biggest reason given by potential borrowers for not using p2b is the unwanted attention/publicity. Carrying on like this is a great way to reduce the supply of loans to all borrowers - good as well as bad. As things stand, I would not advise a corporate borrower to list on AC unless they were truly desperate.
I still don't much like the proposal. I understand what Andrew says about cash flow, and he's absolutely right that the amortisation of goodwill should be ignored. But I've seen too many retailers come to grief when they expand abroad. So it's still not for me.
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Post by batchoy on Apr 23, 2014 8:47:18 GMT
There is asset security in the debenture with high levels of stock. Stock is listed at cost price, not retail. Even at 50% cost price there is enough stock to clear our loan and the other loan. The problem with stock is it that regardless of what value you might put on it be it cost or retail, it is only worth what people will pay for it. With high resale value products such as this that sell on brand and positive coverage in the fashion media if the company gets their designs wrong you just have so much waste leather which is only worth pence per kilo because in terms of brand preservation they would not want to be seen dumping cheap product on the market. Since She Who Must be Obeyed AKA the Handbag Fiend doesn't particularly rate the product, and I'm not overly comfortable with the deal I'm down at toe dipping levels for this one.
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jonno
Member of DD Central
nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Apr 23, 2014 9:08:56 GMT
There is asset security in the debenture with high levels of stock. Stock is listed at cost price, not retail. Even at 50% cost price there is enough stock to clear our loan and the other loan. The problem with stock is it that regardless of what value you might put on it be it cost or retail, it is only worth what people will pay for it. With high resale value products such as this that sell on brand and positive coverage in the fashion media if the company gets their designs wrong you just have so much waste leather which is only worth pence per kilo because in terms of brand preservation they would not want to be seen dumping cheap product on the market. Since She Who Must be Obeyed AKA the Handbag Fiend doesn't particularly rate the product, and I'm not overly comfortable with the deal I'm down at toe dipping levels for this one. I'm worried that if I dipped a toe in this one I'd come out with a serious case of athelete's foot  .By the way,that response from AH says more than all the posts on this thread ever could.Any more toys left in there? Such sensitive souls.
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Post by jackpease on Apr 23, 2014 9:52:00 GMT
I would agree with Pikestaff that being mauled by crowd duedill will put off many
In terms of 'toys out the pram' I suspect AH et al are being punished for being *too* accessible - they respond and interact 24/7 and the minute they take the bank holiday off and there's silence posts get more and more frantic. They may wish they took the FC approach where it's not even worth taking a pop at them.
Re the 9% - it ain't great - but I think we have been spoilt by very high interest rates to date not least because Assetz chooses not to do reverse auctions. Given the demand, had they been put on Funding Knight the loans would have gone down to far lower rates (based on the suppressed demand for assetz loans bar the recent lot). I reckon we'll look back on the last year as the 'honeymoon' period with great rates and low defaults.
If - as seems certain - the housing bubble is about to burst, then future 12month+ property loans even at 70% LTV start to look wobbly. In a year or two 9% on handbags might seem to have been entirely sensible so I've put a few hundred on it as i still trust Assetz' judgement and really hope handbags does not prove to be the start of a backlash prompted by our own inflated expectations.
Jack
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Post by yorkshireman on Apr 23, 2014 10:37:43 GMT
The comments are a reflection on the financial sector in general which is held in deserved contempt and suspicion by many.
After decades of being shafted by snake oil salesmen peddling dodgy products, pension plans, annuities, charging scandalous fees for “managing” investments etc., etc., all under the umbrella of the “old boy” network aka “The City”, we are now being cheated through artificially low interest rates and a stage-managed inflation measure.
Consequently it is understandable that lenders are sceptical when they see guarantees from a “HNWI” as that could mean absolutely nothing although I emphasise that I am not suggesting for one moment that the applicant for this loan is dishonest.
It’s unfortunate that it is AC who have been caught in the firing line in this instance, I can think of more deserving outfits but after years of bullsh*t from the financial spivs and the experience on other P2P platforms, the public is waking up and will increasingly question financial products and investment opportunities.
You could possibly interpret AH’s reply as saying “AC is widening its appeal by offering further diversification so get to used to it” If so I would reply that AC, and any other P2P outfit for that manner, should get used to robust questioning and comments.
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Post by oldnick on Apr 23, 2014 10:40:14 GMT
I agree with Andrew that some of the comments have been inappropriate and unnecessary - veering toward personal attacks, and impugning the integrity of individuals, the sponsor, the borrower, and the platform. I have been puzzled by the absence of the moderators. Be that as it may, I would like to remind everybody that the biggest reason given by potential borrowers for not using p2b is the unwanted attention/publicity. Carrying on like this is a great way to reduce the supply of loans to all borrowers - good as well as bad. As things stand, I would not advise a corporate borrower to list on AC unless they were truly desperate. I still don't much like the proposal. I understand what Andrew says about cash flow, and he's absolutely right that the amortisation of goodwill should be ignored. But I've seen too many retailers come to grief when they expand abroad. So it's still not for me. The moderators operate with a light touch as you know. There is an air of frustration in some of the posts made, and I would not have wanted to put my name to them. Having said that I don't think AC have done themselves any favours either. At the least AC could draw comfort from the interest lenders are showing in this offering and accept it as valuable feedback, rather than as an irritation, which is the message I took away from the one, and apparently only, reply from Andrew. It's true that lenders need borrowers, but borrowers also need lenders. Open communication is surely the best way forward. Lenders who have an expectation (explicitly laid out on the AC website) of loans backed by property security are hardly likely to see themselves as 'spoilt' when, unannounced, a loan is offered with a less tangible form of security, just before the Easter break. To add insult to injury the promotional cash back period is drawing to a close with the only other option being to take more than they feel comfortable with from the underwriters. Rather than talk of 'spoiling' customers, which is what lenders are, AC should continue as they began by 'exceeding customers' expectations'. This doesn't necessarily require that property is exclusively used as security, it does though require that AC try to take their customers with them in introducing innovations. Treat 'em mean - keep' em keen is not going to work here.
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Post by yorkshireman on Apr 23, 2014 11:04:06 GMT
I agree with Andrew that some of the comments have been inappropriate and unnecessary - veering toward personal attacks, and impugning the integrity of individuals, the sponsor, the borrower, and the platform. I have been puzzled by the absence of the moderators. Be that as it may, I would like to remind everybody that the biggest reason given by potential borrowers for not using p2b is the unwanted attention/publicity. Carrying on like this is a great way to reduce the supply of loans to all borrowers - good as well as bad. As things stand, I would not advise a corporate borrower to list on AC unless they were truly desperate. I still don't much like the proposal. I understand what Andrew says about cash flow, and he's absolutely right that the amortisation of goodwill should be ignored. But I've seen too many retailers come to grief when they expand abroad. So it's still not for me. The moderators operate with a light touch as you know. There is an air of frustration in some of the posts made, and I would not have wanted to put my name to them. Having said that I don't think AC have done themselves any favours either. At the least AC could draw comfort from the interest lenders are showing in this offering and accept it as valuable feedback, rather than as an irritation, which is the message I took away from the one, and apparently only, reply from Andrew. It's true that lenders need borrowers, but borrowers also need lenders. Open communication is surely the best way forward. Lenders who have an expectation (explicitly laid out on the AC website) of loans backed by property security are hardly likely to see themselves as 'spoilt' when, unannounced, a loan is offered with a less tangible form of security, just before the Easter break. To add insult to injury the promotional cash back period is drawing to a close with the only other option being to take more than they feel comfortable with from the underwriters. Rather than talk of 'spoiling' customers, which is what lenders are, AC should continue as they began by 'exceeding customers' expectations'. This doesn't necessarily require that property is exclusively used as security, it does though require that AC try to take their customers with them in introducing innovations. Treat 'em mean - keep' em keen is not going to work here. You’ve summed up my own thoughts and feelings and I bet those of the majority of contributors to this thread ON.
I commented some weeks ago that AC should be careful not to lose the goodwill of lenders through ridiculously lengthy draw down times and similarly they should be cautious in handling diversification into this type of loan. Whilst I accept that is their prerogative, it’s also our prerogative not to lend.
As a postscript to my comment earlier this morning, I should have also said that personal attacks should not be part of robust questioning and comments.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
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Post by merlin on Apr 23, 2014 11:10:35 GMT
Could not agree more with the latest three posts above.
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Post by andrewholgate on Apr 23, 2014 11:44:44 GMT
I've been tempted back into the fray given the appearance of a moderator and also some supportive comments by others. I will not hide away and have been very accessible to all of you over the last 12 months. The fact I go away over easter and was pretty much out of contact (albeit lurking) seems to have caused panic amongst some on the forum. Expecting an immediate answer on Easter Sunday is a little too much. As AC gets busier, I do find it harder to be constantly on here, but I do remain and I do continue to post.
On to other matters.
For the record, I do believe some comment that have been made are bordering on derogatory and defamation. This is the last time I will let such matters pass without stronger courses of action being taken. I have said on other deals, and I will say on this one, and I will say on future deals, if you have a problem then direct your ire at me. Do not direct your ire at my team who are doing a job I ask them to do. If this request is not respected and comments are made about my staff that are deemed to be defamatory, I will look to take action. Please, respect my request (one that I have made before) to only direct your ire at me.
I used the word "spoiling" in my previous post and perhaps that was an unfortunate choice of words. We have all benefited from good deals being presented, where there is good security and at a healthy price point. If anything, we have been a price setter rather than a price taker, but the market place is more competitive than 12 months ago and maintaining a price point at the level expected is becoming more difficult. This is not just P2P but other smaller lenders in the market. I still believe in the fixed rate process as I believe in pricing for risk and not pricing for liquidity, but consistent double digit returns will not always be achievable. I have not taken your goodwill for granted and I know that we can only continue to lend with the support of all of you as investors. I continue to keep you at the forefront of what AC is doing and will do in the future. We are working hard on some system changes to reduce drawdown times, reduce the dead time for your cash and also improve the website, as well as continue to bring a steady flow of good quality deals.
The tangible is also being lost along the way. Stock is a tangible asset, it is there, it has a value and we have assessed the value of a distressed sale to be sufficient to recover the debt should it be needed. Stock carries a higher risk than having a solid property, and we have taken a much reduced value when assessing the stock. The debenture does give us step in rights where required, and is the "legal charge" that we use to take ownership of the stock of required. The PG in this case is unsupported and should be viewed as nil value, but also has some psychological value in keeping the chairman honest.
The main reasons for doing this loan are the strong cash flow in the business (remember, cash not profits), the rapid amortisation (full repayment over 3 years) and the value of the stock supporting the loan.
The current loan is one we are trying to see the reaction we get. In order to stay competitive we have to diversify, in the same way the FC have started to offer property loans, Zopa are lending to sole traders etc. Our core product will be what has come before; good loans with strong security (usually meaning a property). However, there will be other good loans with different security. This does not make them bad deals, just different, and this represents a change which is, by human nature, always a cause of conflict.
Everyone has a different perception of risk. I will say clearly IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE RISK, DON'T TAKE IT. Some people will like it, some won't.
I must also stress that our team is full of ex-bankers. Not the investment types that managed to wreck the financial system, but good traditional bank managers who understand risk. Each of my RMs has 15+ years experience in business and lending. I have 15 years SME finance experience. David Ricketts has nearly 20 years, 7 of which have been in a credit role and more specifically distressed credit. David Penston has 30+ years property banking experience. When it comes to things going bad, between Cheryl Cox, Mark Wardrop, David Ricketts and me, we have 60+ years of banking and distressed debt management experience. I would argue there is no other P2P lender out there with this breadth and depth of experience in lending AND in distress management.
I stand by putting this deal on the website.
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koba
Posts: 45
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Post by koba on Apr 23, 2014 12:37:35 GMT
I stopped investing with AC a few weeks back because of what I perceived to be an abrupt deterioration in the quality of the service. Nevertheless, I would still describe myself as a 'concerned fan' of the platform. To be honest I was rather happy to be 'spoiled' with a succession of loans with decent security, profitable businesses and double-digit coupons. I was impressed that AC had a clearly articulated strategy that resonated with me and were reliably executing against it. Now it seems, all of that accumulated goodwill is to be junked in favour of some spurious policy of offering investors 'diversification'. Personally, I am not so keen on this sort of 'diversification' if that simply means adding a bunch of loans with no security, unprofitable businesses and single digit coupons to the existing mix. That is not diversification, that is just different! Whether or not the opportunity flies on some set of cash-flow related criteria (I happen to disagree with AH on this one) is not the only concern. Serviceability is important of course, but so is risk, security, opportunity for genuine diversification and return. Even if this loan scrapes a passing grade on the former, it scores an F on the others.
But I digress. The reason I stopped investing is not because there were 'naff loans like the present one on offer - after all these can be ignored, it was because it is becoming increasingly - and needlessly - hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, mainly due to increasingly sloppy work (sorry no other word for it) in the IPs being distributed and unhelpful clarifications received in the Q&A. I am a realist in these matters. I accept there is only so much DD the fee income will stretch to and that ain't a lot. However, when material factual errors can be discovered with minimal effort you start to wonder what else is going on. Under the circumstances, and with the greatest of respect, inexperienced staff, inadequate oversight and simple growing pains are some of the kinder explanations I can think of.
Bottom line, I am dismayed that AC seems to be becoming a wannabe FC. I may be wrong. It might be possible to chase opportunities willy-nilly without hurting your existing business franchise. History to date seems to suggest otherwise.
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Post by yorkshireman on Apr 23, 2014 12:42:14 GMT
I've been tempted back into the fray given the appearance of a moderator and also some supportive comments by others. I will not hide away and have been very accessible to all of you over the last 12 months. The fact I go away over easter and was pretty much out of contact (albeit lurking) seems to have caused panic amongst some on the forum. Expecting an immediate answer on Easter Sunday is a little too much. As AC gets busier, I do find it harder to be constantly on here, but I do remain and I do continue to post. On to other matters. For the record, I do believe some comment that have been made are bordering on derogatory and defamation. This is the last time I will let such matters pass without stronger courses of action being taken. I have said on other deals, and I will say on this one, and I will say on future deals, if you have a problem then direct your ire at me. Do not direct your ire at my team who are doing a job I ask them to do. If this request is not respected and comments are made about my staff that are deemed to be defamatory, I will look to take action. Please, respect my request (one that I have made before) to only direct your ire at me. I used the word "spoiling" in my previous post and perhaps that was an unfortunate choice of words. We have all benefited from good deals being presented, where there is good security and at a healthy price point. If anything, we have been a price setter rather than a price taker, but the market place is more competitive than 12 months ago and maintaining a price point at the level expected is becoming more difficult. This is not just P2P but other smaller lenders in the market. I still believe in the fixed rate process as I believe in pricing for risk and not pricing for liquidity, but consistent double digit returns will not always be achievable. I have not taken your goodwill for granted and I know that we can only continue to lend with the support of all of you as investors. I continue to keep you at the forefront of what AC is doing and will do in the future. We are working hard on some system changes to reduce drawdown times, reduce the dead time for your cash and also improve the website, as well as continue to bring a steady flow of good quality deals. The tangible is also being lost along the way. Stock is a tangible asset, it is there, it has a value and we have assessed the value of a distressed sale to be sufficient to recover the debt should it be needed. Stock carries a higher risk than having a solid property, and we have taken a much reduced value when assessing the stock. The debenture does give us step in rights where required, and is the "legal charge" that we use to take ownership of the stock of required. The PG in this case is unsupported and should be viewed as nil value, but also has some psychological value in keeping the chairman honest. The main reasons for doing this loan are the strong cash flow in the business (remember, cash not profits), the rapid amortisation (full repayment over 3 years) and the value of the stock supporting the loan. The current loan is one we are trying to see the reaction we get. In order to stay competitive we have to diversify, in the same way the FC have started to offer property loans, Zopa are lending to sole traders etc. Our core product will be what has come before; good loans with strong security (usually meaning a property). However, there will be other good loans with different security. This does not make them bad deals, just different, and this represents a change which is, by human nature, always a cause of conflict. Everyone has a different perception of risk. I will say clearly IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE RISK, DON'T TAKE IT. Some people will like it, some won't. I must also stress that our team is full of ex-bankers. Not the investment types that managed to wreck the financial system, but good traditional bank managers who understand risk. Each of my RMs has 15+ years experience in business and lending. I have 15 years SME finance experience. David Ricketts has nearly 20 years, 7 of which have been in a credit role and more specifically distressed credit. David Penston has 30+ years property banking experience. When it comes to things going bad, between Cheryl Cox, Mark Wardrop, David Ricketts and me, we have 60+ years of banking and distressed debt management experience. I would argue there is no other P2P lender out there with this breadth and depth of experience in lending AND in distress management. I stand by putting this deal on the website. IMO no one is questioning AC’s integrity, experience, competence or it’s right to diversify Andrew. My comment about “wheels within wheels” etc. was not a direct accusation of AC or indeed anyone else involved in this loan but as we all know, connections are an integral part of doing business although I am reassured that everything is above board in this instance and would like to think that this will continue to be the case in any other deal involving AC.
As I said earlier, the problem is the customer’s perception of the financial sector and the atmosphere of mistrust created by decades of abuse of both the system and customers which will now result in investors being more thorough and hard-hitting in their scrutiny of offerings, whether it be from a bank, insurer, investment fund, P2P platform or any other financial provider.
Having said that, there are right and wrong ways of going about this scrutiny and I agree that accusations and personal abuse have no part to play in it.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Apr 23, 2014 12:55:16 GMT
The underwriters and not the undertakers have just been called in...
Now 56% full from 2%, a cool quarter of a mil. plus a little bit...
In EDIT. I wonder how long it will take to unload on the AM? Hackney will look positively fleet-footed...
To be clear I'm still intending to buy some of this when it does come on thou'. This is now a dead cert to drawdown and cashback. This is now no longer about Auction 87
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jonno
Member of DD Central
nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Apr 23, 2014 13:30:46 GMT
The underwriters and not the undertakers have just been called in... Now 56% full from 2%, a cool quarter of a mil. plus a little bit... In EDIT. I wonder how long it will take to unload on the AM? Hackney will look positively fleet-footed... To be clear I'm still intending to buy some of this when it does come on thou'. This is now a dead cert to drawdown and cashback. This is now no longer about Auction 87 Am I misunderstanding you,or do you really think this will be drawndown and available on AM by end of the month (or even just drawndown) given your reference to cashback? p.s. I wouldn't buy this one in the Afterlife,never mind the Aftermarket.
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ramblin rose
Member of DD Central
“Some people grumble that roses have thorns; I am grateful that thorns have roses.” — Alphonse Karr
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Post by ramblin rose on Apr 23, 2014 15:29:55 GMT
I've been tempted back into the fray given the appearance of a moderator and also some supportive comments by others. I will not hide away and have been very accessible to all of you over the last 12 months. The fact I go away over easter and was pretty much out of contact (albeit lurking) seems to have caused panic amongst some on the forum. Expecting an immediate answer on Easter Sunday is a little too much. As AC gets busier, I do find it harder to be constantly on here, but I do remain and I do continue to post..................................................................................The tangible is also being lost along the way. Stock is a tangible asset, it is there, it has a value and we have assessed the value of a distressed sale to be sufficient to recover the debt should it be needed. Stock carries a higher risk than having a solid property, and we have taken a much reduced value when assessing the stock. The debenture does give us step in rights where required, and is the "legal charge" that we use to take ownership of the stock of required. The PG in this case is unsupported and should be viewed as nil value, but also has some psychological value in keeping the chairman honest. The main reasons for doing this loan are the strong cash flow in the business (remember, cash not profits), the rapid amortisation (full repayment over 3 years) and the value of the stock supporting the loan. The current loan is one we are trying to see the reaction we get. In order to stay competitive we have to diversify, in the same way the FC have started to offer property loans, Zopa are lending to sole traders etc. Our core product will be what has come before; good loans with strong security (usually meaning a property). However, there will be other good loans with different security. This does not make them bad deals, just different, and this represents a change which is, by human nature, always a cause of conflict. Everyone has a different perception of risk. I will say clearly IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE RISK, DON'T TAKE IT. Some people will like it, some won't................................................................I stand by putting this deal on the website. It seems to me, Andrew, that your misjudgement here was to put something so radically different up on the site going into the Easter weekend when none of you were liikely to be able to explain to your loyal lenders what was going on. The worst of the rising hysteria and invective would probably have been avoided if you had accompainied the launch of said loan with some explanation of the reasoning that you gave in the post I reference here. Most probably still won't like the risk, such as myself, but as you say, they could just stay out of it. Maybe the main lesson here should be that when you next make a new experimental loan into something very different, you could be a little more mindful about communicating the reasons before people get themselves worked up into a lather. (Yes, I can be a real self-righteous little madam when I want to be  )
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
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Post by merlin on Apr 23, 2014 15:46:19 GMT
Regarding Ranbling Rose's comments above it is worth noting that this thread has had well over 1500 hits since Monday. Wonder what this is communicating to the wider community?
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.By the way,that response from AH says more than all the posts on this thread ever could.Any more toys left in there? Such sensitive souls.
)