upland
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Art.
Dec 31, 2016 17:31:00 GMT
Post by upland on Dec 31, 2016 17:31:00 GMT
I had originally avoided "Art" as an asset class. I start to see that there is a massive piece of the status quo there designed to keep it where it is and so I am warming to it. I wondered what are peoples views of "Art" as an asset class ?
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Art.
Dec 31, 2016 22:34:46 GMT
Post by buttchopf23 on Dec 31, 2016 22:34:46 GMT
Quite abstract to me as wine and whiskey as assets. Drinking is another story.
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bigfoot12
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Art.
Jan 1, 2017 14:43:01 GMT
fp likes this
Post by bigfoot12 on Jan 1, 2017 14:43:01 GMT
I'd agree that 'Art' as a business is self-serving but whilst there may be those engaged in that sector which have an interest in maintaining elevated values in certain artistic niches, there are probably an equal number looking to promote the next 'hot thing' with the effect (if not the intention) of devaluing the previous 'hot thing'. Subsequently, excluding the acknowledged 'masterpieces', doesn't everything else become a little too subject to the vagaries of hype and fashion? For me, this means that (most) Art fails to meet the classic definition of an asset as " an item of economic value that is expected to yield a benefit to the owning entity in future periods". Art can also be expensive to move and store, compared to say jewellery, so has that against it, too. I'm with @new2p2p on this, but would add the cost of insurance and difficulty in diversifying as two additional problems. Even the funds that move in this world seem to be $500k minimum. Quite abstract to me as wine and whiskey as assets. Drinking is another story. Not sure that I agree with you on the whisky, as it is possible to buy it close to cost and there is a minimum 3 year maturation period which tends to give a chance of some price growth in that period. I have a small investment through whisky invest direct which I am reasonably happy with so far, but I haven't held it long enough to be confident yet.
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am
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Art.
Jan 9, 2017 12:29:41 GMT
Post by am on Jan 9, 2017 12:29:41 GMT
Not sure that I agree with you on the whisky, as it is possible to buy it close to cost and there is a minimum 3 year maturation period which tends to give a chance of some price growth in that period. I have a small investment through whisky invest direct which I am reasonably happy with so far, but I haven't held it long enough to be confident yet. I had a look at the site, and while the overheads (storage fees) are prominently displayed I think that I've worked them out to be £0.15 per annum per litre, which works out at between 5% for single malts and 15% for grain. They claim that grain has performed better as an investment, which surprises me - at those overheads and glancing at the price charts, I would have estimated that grain wasn't that far from break even. What has been your experience? (One should make a profit after storage costs, as profit and overheads should have been factored into the discount to the wholesale price of the mature whisky of the purchase price.) There's also possible tax risks. It seems to be assumed that gains are subject to CGT, but it is stated that the tax treatment is not crystal clear. What I like to see clarified is whether storage costs can be offset against gains.
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bigfoot12
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Art.
Jan 9, 2017 21:15:51 GMT
Post by bigfoot12 on Jan 9, 2017 21:15:51 GMT
I don't think that you will get any such clarification. And it might be wrong as Zopa's was in the early days.
I see no reason to doubt their claim that recently grain has performed best. I haven't sold anything yet, and I am 25% grain 75% malt.
One thing to consider is that we aren't buying this at a discount to the future price, we are buying at the current cost of production.
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Art.
Jan 10, 2017 7:56:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 7:56:30 GMT
Art, I avoid anything that has not had the chance to get at least 2 generations of evaluation (though obviously I avoid anything valued by Saatchi, too many vowels). Modern stuff is just a place to store money for the uber rich.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jan 10, 2017 8:21:03 GMT
(though obviously I avoid anything valued by Saatchi, too many vowels). TBF, there's a lower vowel-density than your own name...
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Art.
Jan 10, 2017 21:50:13 GMT
Post by ozboy on Jan 10, 2017 21:50:13 GMT
Among other DDs I always try and meet with the Directors of a Platform and eyeball them before I start lobbing in the more serious spondoolies.
One particular Platform, whose Directors I rate as honest, straight, etc, when I asked them "Is there anything to steer clear of?", their immediate reply was "Art"!!!!
And the only investment I have been burned on, so far, after nearly three years of ABP2P Lending, is.................................Art.
Caveat Emptor indeed!
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 11, 2017 23:09:37 GMT
After all that, I can't follow my own experience and advice, I'm too tempted and just about to bosh four figures into a Picasso. I figure he's reasonably bankable (?!), having DD'd and confirmed that the LTV @ c51% seems right  |
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stub8535
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personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
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Post by stub8535 on Jan 12, 2017 0:33:56 GMT
With ozboy on dropping 4 figure sum on Picaso. Normally I only invest in art where there is a guaranteed buyback by either the valuer or a partner business. In these cases I bid high.
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pom
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Post by pom on Jan 12, 2017 9:16:13 GMT
So I don't know what loan you're referring to, but would warn that even big names had off days, and although a good name will increase the value if it's not a good example of their work it may not be sufficiently desirable to make that value in a distressed sale (so I hope it's a very low LTV). And even known names can be difficult to value - a few years ago I was looking to arrange disposal of some paintings by known (albeit minor) artists and got wildly varying values. And as for trying to do any DD ourselves, well I always remember the painting that was Gramps' pride and joy, he was convinced it was worth 10k or more - and I found a lot of paintings by that artist online selling for that and much more. But because I had his right in front of me (rather than trying to compare pics online) it was easier for me to tell that it really wasn't anywhere near as good, and the £350-£1000 estimates I'd received from auction houses were rather more likely. If I'd sold it I'd have had to tell him how much it went for which would have broken his heart, and I didn't want it so I gave it to his nephew - win-win-win.
As far as I'm concerned art is totally subjective and investing in it for anything other than pleasure is a gamble. Having said that when I first started investing in p2p I did hold some very small amounts in some art loans at MT for a while whilst I built my portfolio, sold them well before first renewal and haven't touched an art loan since. There are plenty of other loans out there.
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ozboy
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Art.
Jan 12, 2017 15:59:27 GMT
Post by ozboy on Jan 12, 2017 15:59:27 GMT
Good, valid points pom. I am really, really not wanting to go near art but the property loans on most of the sites are getting pretty dire by the day and have been for some time IMO. 70% LTV is also far too risky for moi. And you can only bosh smallish amounts (usually) into watches, jewellery. etc. with medium amounts into cars. The only other art I have gone near is a couple of Banksys which again I figure are a reasonable punt.
I hear everything you say about art risk and totally agree with it, just got to stop myself in future, even if it's a "big" name!
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pom
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Art.
Jan 13, 2017 14:32:07 GMT
Post by pom on Jan 13, 2017 14:32:07 GMT
Well so long as your loan part is a sensible size compared to the rest of a well diversified portfolio and its low LTV on a platform with a liquid SM then it probably won't hurt as a short term place to stash a bit of cash, and I agree could well be better than some of the property loans out there! Probably also depends on your overall risk-return strategy also, if perhaps you're only interested in rates in double figures then there will be fewer "safe" (looking) homes.
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pom
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Art.
Jan 13, 2017 14:45:38 GMT
Post by pom on Jan 13, 2017 14:45:38 GMT
Oh - just come across the loan I assume you were talking about... umm good luck. Whilst I might be tempted to consider "original" works, I wouldn't touch prints/etchings with someone else's bargepole, tho if you had to then I guess a Picasso is about as safe as they get.
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locutus
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Art.
Jan 13, 2017 15:11:31 GMT
Post by locutus on Jan 13, 2017 15:11:31 GMT
Oh - just come across the loan I assume you were talking about... umm good luck. Whilst I might be tempted to consider "original" works, I wouldn't touch prints/etchings with someone else's bargepole, tho if you had to then I guess a Picasso is about as safe as they get. Any reason why pom as I'm thinking of investing in this.
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