Investboy
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Post by Investboy on Feb 7, 2017 14:01:18 GMT
ablrate , ablrateandy : Will you ever enable secondary market trading for those loans? I'd be keen to sell them and would give a hefty discount to do this.
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mason
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Post by mason on Feb 7, 2017 18:31:04 GMT
I believe it is being held up by the transaction discussed here.
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pom
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Post by pom on Feb 8, 2017 9:35:41 GMT
I believe it is being held up by the transaction discussed here. I thought that initially too, and then concluded that as he talked about loans plural he's probably actually talking about the defaulted loans (plus why else would he be talking about hefty discounts).. in which case I can't see why ABL would change their policy to not allow trading in defaults....
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Post by ablrate on Feb 8, 2017 11:07:44 GMT
Hmmm ... trading of defaulted loan is doable... but not ideal. We will have a chat internally and seek feedback from holders of the loan... but I a inclined to say no...on the other hand we are all grown ups...
Its a tough one, as there would be many regulatory issues to look at and assess. As an excercise I will run it past compliance.
Regards Ablrate
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mason
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Post by mason on Feb 8, 2017 18:28:10 GMT
I thought that initially too, and then concluded that as he talked about loans plural he's probably actually talking about the defaulted loans (plus why else would he be talking about hefty discounts).. in which case I can't see why ABL would change their policy to not allow trading in defaults.... Yes that makes a lot more sense. It hadn't even occurred to me that trading of the defaulted loans could be entertained as a possibility. At this point, based on the information shared with us, there could be anything between a total loss to a 100% recovery, and no real insights into the timelines involved. And a sale would prevent the loss being offset against taxable interest. But, if nothing else, it would certainly be interesting to see how hefty a discount would be needed for someone to buy. I imagine there would be some itching to get out of the other loan, too. A lot has changed there as well. I'm less keen now than I was originally, but the return of capital should bring my exposure to this one down to a level I'm comfortable with again.
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pom
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Post by pom on Feb 8, 2017 19:00:33 GMT
I thought that initially too, and then concluded that as he talked about loans plural he's probably actually talking about the defaulted loans (plus why else would he be talking about hefty discounts).. in which case I can't see why ABL would change their policy to not allow trading in defaults.... Yes that makes a lot more sense. It hadn't even occurred to me that trading of the defaulted loans could be entertained as a possibility. At this point, based on the information shared with us, there could be anything between a total loss to a 100% recovery, and no real insights into the timelines involved. And a sale would prevent the loss being offset against taxable interest. But, if nothing else, it would certainly be interesting to see how hefty a discount would be needed for someone to buy. It would certainly be interesting to see whether a hefty discount would give some investors more pause to think than a big red box at par
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mason
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Post by mason on Feb 8, 2017 19:58:44 GMT
It would certainly be interesting to see whether a hefty discount would give some investors more pause to think than a big red box at par Yes, but I think most who lend here have far more realistic views about the range of outcomes that is possible following a default than over in the other place.
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james
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Post by james on Feb 8, 2017 23:44:53 GMT
I've done a fair bit of selling of defaulted and buying and selling of late loans over at Bondora. Works somewhat well, though some are inclined to offer excessive discounts or premiums. Premiums because of penalty interest rates and charges over there.
The biggest problem is changes of loan state, say having a payment made, which improves the prospects for repayment. What happens there is that automated or manual buying up of the offers based on the old state is done before those making an offer have had a chance to withdraw it, typically within tens of seconds of the change happening. As a partial defence against this I took to offering non-trivial discounts or reduced premiums only during times of the week when I knew that no changes were likely.
False markets and speed of news receipt would be two significant issues. I think that Ablrate would need to suspend the market a day or so before and at least a day after significant calendar events and after emailed or otherwise disseminated updates. Just to be sure that market participants have time to get the news and update their prices. Or maybe even cancel all offers to be more sure that none are based on stale status.
Research differences between lenders could also matter, for example to assess potential availability of assets. No insider trading issue here, I assume, since the info would normally be public records.
Of course insider trading potential would exist but that's nothing novel.
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Investboy
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Post by Investboy on Feb 9, 2017 10:55:07 GMT
ablrate: Thanks for the answer and consideration. I'd really appreciate if you could consider opening the possibility of trading defaulted loans, not only those 2 mentioned. You could ensure no one buys it by mistake with lots of red boxes, big bold text ect.
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blender
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Post by blender on Feb 9, 2017 11:22:14 GMT
ablrate : Thanks for the answer and consideration. I'd really appreciate if you could consider opening the possibility of trading defaulted loans, not only those 2 mentioned. You could ensure no one buys it by mistake with lots of red boxes, big bold text ect. It's a nice idea. But who writes and continuously updates the prospectus, or whatever information is to be supplied on the current position, to a prospective debt purchaser, who may not be a current lender? Would that be the seller? Or another job for Ablrate? Or does the buyer just take a blind punt?
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Investboy
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Post by Investboy on Feb 9, 2017 15:03:53 GMT
Thank you But who writes and continuously updates the prospectus, or whatever information is to be supplied on the current position, to a prospective debt purchaser, who may not be a current lender? Would that be the seller? Or another job for Ablrate? Or does the buyer just take a blind punt? Honestly I don't know. I'm just suggesting the idea for potential consideration. If it is not possible for whatever reason then I have to live with that. But lets see what ABL compliance team will say...
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mason
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Post by mason on Feb 9, 2017 19:28:54 GMT
It's a nice idea. But who writes and continuously updates the prospectus, or whatever information is to be supplied on the current position, to a prospective debt purchaser, who may not be a current lender? Would that be the seller? Or another job for Ablrate? Or does the buyer just take a blind punt? It might be necessary to make more substantial use of the admin notes section of the loan listing. The difficulty would be in providing enough information to prospective traders, while respecting the interests of the defaulted borrower.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 9, 2017 19:38:21 GMT
Is there any other (UK-based) platform that permits trading of such "fundamentally defaulted" loans? None of those I use do so (not intentionally anyway; I once escaped a ReBS loan "between defaults" when it was "refactored" and briefly became trade-able, before again failing to meet the newly agreed payments)
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blender
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Post by blender on Feb 9, 2017 19:47:42 GMT
Quite (Mason). It could only be Ablrate who could give the info. It would need to be up to date - a blow by blow account of the proceedings - and it would be visible to any prospective purchaser. Ablrate would then become the agent of the new purchaser under novation. It is a great idea but maybe asking too much of Ablrate for no return - unless there was a fee. But It would be good to have a market for defaulted loan parts. Maybe an agreement between the lender and debt factors - facilitated/approved by Ablrate but not involving new contracts with Ablrate and Borrower. Sell your rights to recoveries, without exiting.
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james
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Post by james on Feb 9, 2017 20:12:33 GMT
Is there any other (UK-based) platform that permits trading of such "fundamentally defaulted" loans? None of those I use do so (not intentionally anyway; I once escaped a ReBS loan "between defaults" when it was "refactored" and briefly became trade-able, before again failing to meet the newly agreed payments) Saving Stream. And forced to buy at par if you do it. Lots of PBL020 around to buy. I don't think that any borrower there has yet gone quite as far as this one did in the way of improper conduct, though, not even the undisclosed 10% shareholder in the PBL020 borrower, Lendy AKA Saving Stream. Shades of "fundamentally defaulted" definitions exist so there's a lot of room for differing opinions on what to include.
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