oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Apr 19, 2017 8:51:08 GMT
A bit sad to leave, but £5k minimum and an extra 0.5% in fees is a bit too much for me. Liquidated quicker than a Nutribullet and back into my bank account the day after. Thank you Steve and the gang for the great customer service, I wish your company well. Can someone tell me how long in practice BM are taking currently to liquidate funds? I asked at about 10:30 yesterday and have no proof it is actually happening except the "your request is being processed ... may take 7-28 days" banner which appeared and stayed on my screen. In the meantime I have been allocated five new loans.
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mike
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Post by mike on Apr 19, 2017 9:03:34 GMT
A bit sad to leave, but £5k minimum and an extra 0.5% in fees is a bit too much for me. Liquidated quicker than a Nutribullet and back into my bank account the day after. Thank you Steve and the gang for the great customer service, I wish your company well. Can someone tell me how long in practice BM are taking currently to liquidate funds? I asked at about 10:30 yesterday and have no proof it is actually happening except the "your request is being processed ... may take 7-28 days" banner which appeared and stayed on my screen. In the meantime I have been allocated five new loans. OG, I did one recently, it took about 4/5 working days. I also requested one yesterday, nothing yet. When I did the last one they sent an email requesting me to confirm my receiving bank account so I knew it was in progress. Mike
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Apr 19, 2017 9:29:42 GMT
mike Thank you. I'll await progress. It is a bit odd that BM refuse to confirm immediately by email, and on our summary page that liquidation is in progress and no further investments will be made.
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Post by sleepy on Apr 19, 2017 9:47:22 GMT
I requested my liquidation late on Monday evening and got the same banner confirmation on the website.
I noticed a couple of new investments had gone through on 18th so called BM up to check and apparently it was due to the auto-invest/reinvest setting still being 'ON' - the lady I spoke to said she would have it turned off (I had no access to do so).
I've checked my settings and they are now turned off but I would suggest others check theirs also to make sure they are switched off.
Ideally I would have thought it would have been turned off after the liquidation was triggered but I guess the process isn't automated behind the scenes so it has to be done manually.
The lady I spoke to also said she had a few liquidations to work through as it had been a holiday weekend but I did get an email yesterday around 6pm to confirm my request, explain what would happen and ask me to confirm my bank account.
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DeafEater
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Extremely Moderate
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Post by DeafEater on Apr 19, 2017 12:16:47 GMT
I also decided to bale out of BM on Sunday evening although I did have the foresight to think about turning off auto-invest before doing so. Unfortunately foresight alone wasn't enough and like sleepy I found the website wouldn't let me turn it off. Either there is a problem with the UI or it's so cryptic, it can't be operated by normal human beings.
Anyway I had an email from Steve towards the end of business hours yesterday (Tuesday) asking me to confirm the bank account I wanted the money to go to. The email suggested that the main liquidation should take 1 - 2 business days with the accrued interest arriving sometime later. I've just checked auto-invest on my account and someone has now turned it off. I'll report back when the money arrives.
Edit: The capital and cleared interest arrived in my designated account on 20/04/2017.
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Apr 19, 2017 16:55:30 GMT
I exited as soon as I got the email and got the money in my bank quite quickly, so I think any current delays might be down to the volume plus Easter.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Apr 19, 2017 17:09:53 GMT
mike Thank you. I'll await progress. It is a bit odd that BM refuse to confirm immediately by email, and on our summary page that liquidation is in progress and no further investments will be made. I had the email from Steve Findlay, to confirm bank details. The email lists the account value, and the default/watch situation. It refers specifically to instances where more than one closely related loan to the same borrower was made and confirms that maximum loss risk will be limited to a single part. edit: 20 April 13:43 Money in bank account this morning. Just need to await the default/watch outcomes and the accrued interest in due course. Friendly note from him. Shame really. No need for me to repeat my views in detail; changes could have been applied more transitionally so that money deployed before the announcement still had a chance of achieving the target 7% after fees which had been consistently offered for accounts open for a year. £10,400 invested over 8 months. Return after fees (1%) £366 (if/when accrued interest arrives). Defaults and watchlist loans pending £340. Estimated return over 8 months 6.7%, which will change to about 0.5% if those defaults are crystallised. I'll publish my actual experience when all outstanding loans end.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2017 5:55:05 GMT
Remarkably similar figures to mine oldgrumpy Default/watchlist totals match my net interest income almost exactly after approximately 8 months. After liquidation I have received back into my bank account at this point a total amount (including past withdrawals) slightly less than what I put in. Accrued interest should bring me back to breakeven, give or take a few quid. Final figures will depend on the recovery from the default/watchlist loans.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 22, 2017 7:41:51 GMT
£10,400 invested over 8 months. Return after fees (1%) £366 (if/when accrued interest arrives). Defaults and watchlist loans pending £340. Estimated return over 8 months 6.7%, which will change to about 0.5% if those defaults are crystallised. I'll publish my actual experience when all outstanding loans end. How much of the default/watch is invoice discounting?
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Apr 22, 2017 7:51:25 GMT
£10,400 invested over 8 months. Return after fees (1%) £366 (if/when accrued interest arrives). Defaults and watchlist loans pending £340. Estimated return over 8 months 6.7%, which will change to about 0.5% if those defaults are crystallised. I'll publish my actual experience when all outstanding loans end. How much of the default/watch is invoice discounting? £190
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dave
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Post by dave on Apr 22, 2017 9:25:45 GMT
It would probably be really helpful to me at this point if a few people, who understand the difference between (X)IRR and BondMason's headline figure on the summary screen, could post that their return is around the 7% targeted. I'm not asking for a survey and I'm not asking for a platform response. 6.25% net of all fees, before tax, and slowly climbing ... 6 months in, 1% slice setting Dave
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 22, 2017 10:47:21 GMT
6.41% after 11 months, after fees but before tax and any losses. Not there yet.
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amphoria
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Post by amphoria on Apr 22, 2017 17:06:27 GMT
6.50% after 9 months net of fees but before any losses. Note that this is 9 months after the initial investment. I have made 5 further investments over the 9 months.
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fogey
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Post by fogey on Apr 22, 2017 17:07:57 GMT
After initial 3 month ramp up (from total of 4 deposits with deployment times of between an initial 42days and subsequent 14-21 days), then nearly 2 months later, XIRR is 6.2% and still slowly rising. I suspect there is a powerful randomisation algorithm working on the deposits, so that some are less than the "typical 28 days" and some are longer. This would explain the remarks ( more frequently complaints !) that others have made about this initial drag problem and the observed variability. Of course if there is a real drought of new loans available then these times extend considerably and even start to affect loan replacements within a previously fully allocated account, as they did for some time last autumn, but which I avoided by following the forum here and waiting until the drought was coming to an end.
Note ... Thinking further around this drought ( after composing my initial post here) it is quite possible that it considerably increased the risk profile of clients enduring it, because their baseline growth was stunted ( not fully allocated for several months) and furthermore any loans allocated then may have been at a higher deployment level than they would otherwise have been. So for example a 2% allocation ( needed to recover from the drought) may well have been rounded up to 3% which is very damaging if it picks up a loan which then defaults. Had this drought not occurred then the overall performance would be considerably enhanced, as the time to reduce down to 1% allocation would have been much quicker. In addition of course the baseline growth rate would have been faster too. I will write more about this later as I think it is very important to understand in the context of some clients who have suffered more than others. In this prolonged drought case the distribution of performance is likely to be far wider than normal ( when there is no drought and readily available loans )... back to original post ..
If I can diverge a little here and expand my new ( just dawned on me whilst writing here ! )thoughts around the latest controversial issues within this BM discussion board ... which have caused rather irrational posts here and thereby made future communications with the platform operator very difficult at the moment ... perhaps a new thread around this would be of interest to others ... subject ... randomisation ..
Randomisation of all the variables seems to be at the very heart of the way this complex product works and so this is probably why the experience of individuals varies so much initially, but I suspect that over a long time they are expected end up in a similar situation. The question of course is how long this is expected to take and I suspect it may extend into several years (especially if subjected to an abnormal loan drought for any extended time). In any case it needs to be seen as a long term investment, where withdrawals at an early stage may be penalised (within this particular product by the higher risk of defaults inducing a capital loss). In this way it might be seen as comparable to a conventional fixed term interest deposit with strict penalties for early withdrawals. For example some conventional fixed term interest products impose a penalty of an interest loss of 270 days ( or even more ). In this case note that the strict penalty also eats into the initial capital too thereby resulting in an overall loss, which can be considerable for a high interest account. Perhaps this analogy should form part of the marketing strategy here too, so that potential clients are better prepared for what might be expected from this complex product, should they attempt to withdraw from it before the "maturity date" and so whether it is suited to their particular needs ? ( In addition to the recent realisation that it is not suitable for deposits below 5k ). Of course due to the randomisation from the very start of an investment, some clients may suffer far more than others ( especially those subjected to loan drought or where they frequently add further large deposits) should they wish to withdraw in the early term ( possibly within a year of more ) as is being seen by recent posts here.
Apologies for the diversion, but I felt compelled to write that down whilst it was still fresh in my mind. To resume on the results of my own personal experience so far ..
No funds added or removed since the ramp up and the deployment rate has remained very close to 100% as new loans have cycled through. The allocation rate was automatically reduced from 2% to 1% shortly after my ramp up ended. I still have a few loan parts around 2% but these are slowly being replaced by parts at 1% or less ( for the higher risk ID loans ). So my risk profile is slowly impoving with time, which is exactly how this product is expected to work in time. If the allocation choice of 0.5% becomes available then the risk profile improves even further of course. I think I would certainly choose this in the light of current events reported here.
I have also processed my day to day annualised return and this is very close to 1% below the headline given at the top of the dashboard. For my account this has given a recent day to day return of 7.5 to 7.6% pa. So even with the revised charge of 1.5 % I would expect my daily return to be very close to 7% and in time the XIRR would eventually reach this level too. I will see if I can present this data here in a graphical format later. So possibly the current view of the effects of the new fees is being undersold by the platform operator, whereby they are shooting themselves in the foot and even (further) hindering their own marketing strategy ! My own personal headline rate is also slightly below the platform blended loan rate given at the bottom of their home page (currently around 8.8%). If this figure were used then the post 1.5% fee target rate of 7% is even more realistic. It all depends how successful BM are in attracting low risk higher rate loans within the total platform blend.
But this has to be balanced against possible losses and I have recently had two loans placed on my watchlist. One is a bridging loan (0.8% capital loss potential) where interest is still being paid and stated as needing a few months to resolve before repayment, so I perceive this as an even lower potential loss than 0.8%. The other loan at risk is an overdue ID (0.8% potential loss), which has not yet been classified as a formal default. So everything depends on how any future crystallised losses might impinge on my slowly accumulating percentage gains as time goes by.
I would only truly realise these potential losses if I tried to liquidate right now, where these two possible losses would then certainly cancel out most of my gains so far, but as I am over the 5k limit I have no pressing need to do this.
It would be interesting to know how my situation compares with others here. I suspect it is very close to the "typical" situation but it would be useful to try and determine this by discussion with other people here. Also to get their views on my randomisation ramble and comparison with a conventional long term bond with strict penalties for early withdrawal. If this analogy holds then perhaps those complaining about their capital losses at the moment should reconsider their views. It is not as if they are at risk of losing their entire capital, as they are already protected by the strong diversity that the structure of the BM product provides by its inherent design. This is definitely not a product where the advertised target rate is expected to be easily achieved, especially within the first year.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 23, 2017 11:54:45 GMT
The big problem is diversification, a single loss can cause a 1% or even a 2% loss of capital. I am sitting on two loans on the watch list and three in default after just under a year invested, that could turn into a hefty loss. BM need to allow at least a 0.5% exposure rate and preferably lower. I would love to invest more, but the size of possible defaults is a big deterrent. Even without losses I am 0.6% below the 7% target. (And there is the extra problem of paying tax on the fees to take into account). Hoping for some changes from BM to help lenders, hanging in there for the moment.
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