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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 1, 2020 16:58:24 GMT
Since the beginning I have said that I am concerned about this situation because I (just like the other plots' owners) have been stuck with this investment for almost 4 years. I have also clearly said that, as I have totally lost faith in the developer, I would like preferential creditors to force this company into liquidation. However, all this does not mean that my comments are unfair or untrue. I can stop writing on this forum, if this makes you feel better, but this will not change the way things are. Fairly sure nobody here has a problem with you posting (technically irrelevant if they do, as long as you follow forum rules), you actually offer a different perspective. I merely questioned how much you really care about our well being as opposed to your own? As a benchmark I would sell you for body parts if it got me my money back (and I only have a very small sum invested).
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criston
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Post by criston on Dec 2, 2020 15:50:05 GMT
Since the beginning I have said that I am concerned about this situation because I (just like the other plots' owners) have been stuck with this investment for almost 4 years. I have also clearly said that, as I have totally lost faith in the developer, I would like preferential creditors to force this company into liquidation. However, all this does not mean that my comments are unfair or untrue. I can stop writing on this forum, if this makes you feel better, but this will not change the way things are. I note the brochure asked for £5k deposit, so if all were reserved, that is £1.56m. Have you actually lost the deposits, or or they safe but tied up ? I note there was a deposit insurance protection.
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Post by memy on Dec 3, 2020 0:37:46 GMT
5K is the reservation deposit but you need to pay 35% of the purchase price on exchange. As far as I know, they have sold less than 100 plots. Regarding the deposit protection, the insurer has confirmed the developer has not paid the premium.
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criston
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Post by criston on Dec 3, 2020 21:22:33 GMT
Update. Targets met so far.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 3, 2020 21:51:41 GMT
Update. Targets met so far. 25% interest contribution sounds so much better than a 1/4 of amount due. Must have a new script writer.
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Post by memy on Dec 3, 2020 22:48:49 GMT
Not everyone can seat and wait for months (soon years...) to receive back his investment. Some lenders can, some others can't. Moreover, the borrower is not paying interests regularly anymore (that is why you are currently receiving only around 4% pa, much less than what you were supposed to receive) as he is running out of money. If you are happy to wait until the money is completely over and you stop receiving interests, then it is fine. Anyway, this is what is going to happen. As I see it, there are two options: Option 1: Appoint an administrator and firesale the site. Given the continued enagement by the borrower I'd expect a full capital recovery, but then after admin fees possibly a loss Option 2: Wait it out a bit. Borrower continues to pay some interest (significantly more than any savings account, similar level to the Assetz QAA, and key is greater than inflation). Hopefully a refinance happens and lenders receive full capital and interest far sooner than they would under Option 1. Fallback of Option 1 should this fail. I appreciate you have a different angle on this, but from a P2P Lender's perspective, unless you feel that the market hasn't already priced Covid into land values (eg you want to get rid fast) then there's really only one clear option given continued injection of cash by the equity holder The new owners have said they need all investors to agree to extend the long stop date before they have ability to finance the build. Some investors do not want to extend the long stop date therefore I really do not understand why you are still hoping that a refinance happens. It has been a year since the shares were transferred to the "new owners". Don't you think this is a sufficient time to refinance? As a refinance will never happen, soon or later, you will go back to option 1. In the meantime, I am afraid, the land is losing value for several reasons, not only for Covid. During the last years, Liverpool has become well known for Fractional Investment Property scandal. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been lost in relation to a number of collapsed property projects in Liverpool city centre. There are currently a lot of abandoned sites in the city centre. Failed property developments and the city of Liverpool are shamefully becoming synonymous. These projects have left millions owed in Section 106 payments to Liverpool City Council. In this regard, the "borrower"still has an outstanding Section 106 debt to Liverpool City Council of £903,723.35. In addition to all this, more and more companies (developers and contractors) are going into administration. I am not saying that it is impossible to find a new reliable developer who is ready to buy the land (this is actually my only hope) but I am sure that the land has lost value during the last year. Regarding the interests, the borrowers are now paying only 25% of what they promised to pay. I have never invested in P2P and I am not an expert about it but I would assume that, if someone told you to invest in P2P to receive 4% interests, you would refuse. P2P lenders want to achieve much more than 4% because they know the capital is at risk. Why you are now happy to receive only 4% interests remains a mystery to me.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Dec 4, 2020 6:47:49 GMT
As I see it, there are two options: Option 1: Appoint an administrator and firesale the site. Given the continued enagement by the borrower I'd expect a full capital recovery, but then after admin fees possibly a loss Option 2: Wait it out a bit. Borrower continues to pay some interest (significantly more than any savings account, similar level to the Assetz QAA, and key is greater than inflation). Hopefully a refinance happens and lenders receive full capital and interest far sooner than they would under Option 1. Fallback of Option 1 should this fail. I appreciate you have a different angle on this, but from a P2P Lender's perspective, unless you feel that the market hasn't already priced Covid into land values (eg you want to get rid fast) then there's really only one clear option given continued injection of cash by the equity holder The new owners have said they need all investors to agree to extend the long stop date before they have ability to finance the build. Some investors do not want to extend the long stop date therefore I really do not understand why you are still hoping that a refinance happens. It has been a year since the shares were transferred to the "new owners". Don't you think this is a sufficient time to refinance? As a refinance will never happen, soon or later, you will go back to option 1. In the meantime, I am afraid, the land is losing value for several reasons, not only for Covid. During the last years, Liverpool has become well known for Fractional Investment Property scandal. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been lost in relation to a number of collapsed property projects in Liverpool city centre. There are currently a lot of abandoned sites in the city centre. Failed property developments and the city of Liverpool are shamefully becoming synonymous. These projects have left millions owed in Section 106 payments to Liverpool City Council. In this regard, the "borrower"still has an outstanding Section 106 debt to Liverpool City Council of £903,723.35. In addition to all this, more and more companies (developers and contractors) are going into administration. I am not saying that it is impossible to find a new reliable developer who is ready to buy the land (this is actually my only hope) but I am sure that the land has lost value during the last year. Regarding the interests, the borrowers are now paying only 25% of what they promised to pay. I have never invested in P2P and I am not an expert about it but I would assume that, if someone told you to invest in P2P to receive 4% interests, you would refuse. P2P lenders want to achieve much more than 4% because they know the capital is at risk. Why you are now happy to receive only 4% interests remains a mystery to me. I wonder if you may not be having exactly the opposite effect to the one you seek. If what you say is correct, you and the others not agreeing are the reason we are not getting our money. Defaulting the loan simply makes you our problem as opposed to the current borrowers. If you knew the P2P market better you may know that 4% (Arguably questionable it is that high) and the chance of getting your capital back at some point is currently not one to lose much sleep over.
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Post by memy on Dec 4, 2020 9:51:10 GMT
Could you please tell me when I said that I have not agreed to extend the stop long date?
Obviously, I am not responsible for what the other investors do, but that is another story.
In any case, to think that we (the investors) are the problem here is simply ridiculous.
The problem is the borrower and all the people involved in this scam (about Moneything I wouldn't know).
You keep on repeating that 4% interest is a high interest rate and I would agree with you if the capital was not a risk. Considering there is a risk you won't get your money back (or not entirely) I still believe that 4% is a low interest rate.
Anyway, everyone is entitled to have his point of view.
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TitoPuente
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Post by TitoPuente on Dec 4, 2020 10:14:32 GMT
My solicitor registered a unilateral notice on the landlord's title at the time I bought the plot. Although this does not mean I am a secured creditor, I still remain the owner of a registered plot therefore, once the land will be sold on auction to a new developer, he cannot disregard the existing unilateral notices. I have already been in a similar situation in the past. I believe that, even if there is a serious and experienced developer who is interested in completing this project, he is just waiting for the current owner to go into liquidation so that he can show up once an auction is held. The location is excellent therefore there is still a good profit to be made for an experienced developer. I might be wrong, of course, but I really don't see how you (lenders) can get your loan (partly) back unless you force the borrower to go into liquidation. It is now almost one year since the "buyer" bought the shares of this company. Do you really still believe that he could find the funds he needs to complete this project? I would be really surprised if this happened. I lost you. In the case of an administration, how do you expect to recover your deposit if lenders would only recover part? Do you believe that you rank ahead of MT lenders?
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Jaydee
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Post by Jaydee on Dec 4, 2020 10:55:47 GMT
My solicitor registered a unilateral notice on the landlord's title at the time I bought the plot. Although this does not mean I am a secured creditor, I still remain the owner of a registered plot therefore, once the land will be sold on auction to a new developer, he cannot disregard the existing unilateral notices. I have already been in a similar situation in the past. I believe that, even if there is a serious and experienced developer who is interested in completing this project, he is just waiting for the current owner to go into liquidation so that he can show up once an auction is held. The location is excellent therefore there is still a good profit to be made for an experienced developer. I might be wrong, of course, but I really don't see how you (lenders) can get your loan (partly) back unless you force the borrower to go into liquidation. It is now almost one year since the "buyer" bought the shares of this company. Do you really still believe that he could find the funds he needs to complete this project? I would be really surprised if this happened. I lost you. In the case of an administration, how do you expect to recover your deposit if lenders would only recover part? Do you believe that you rank ahead of MT lenders? Well said TitoPuente this person is under the illusion that they rank ahead of MT on repayment of monies. If it goes into Administration, it is more than likely that all registered UNI's will be ruled out by a Judge, thereby enabling an Administrator to realise a higher sale price for an unencumbered site. Whilst a 25% repayment of the monthly interest has been received, this is the second tranche received in a couple of weeks and shows the Borrowers willingness to make promised payments. As for Development funding, the Borrower is arranging a Bridging Loan to repay the MT loan, not Development funding. Only a few weeks ago, work started on a private development of 300 plus apartments no more than 500 yards from this site. So there is still confidence in the residential market.
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eeyore
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Post by eeyore on Dec 4, 2020 11:15:05 GMT
Nov 30, 2020 23:06:41 GMT memy said:
I certainly understand your point however, assuming your calculations are correct, you still need £9k a plot to pay you off and I am not so sure (to say the least...) this would be possible.
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Dec 1, 2020 16:04:00 GMT memy said:
Since the beginning I have said that I am concerned about this situation because I (just like the other plots' owners) have been stuck with this investment for almost 4 years. I have also clearly said that, as I have totally lost faith in the developer, I would like preferential creditors to force this company into liquidation.
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Dec 3, 2020 0:37:46 GMT memy said:
5K is the reservation deposit but you need to pay 35% of the purchase price on exchange. As far as I know, they have sold less than 100 plots. Regarding the deposit protection, the insurer has confirmed the developer has not paid the premium.
Memy, forgive me for coming late to this discussion, but I am confused by your references to buying "plots" in this development. According to the loan description, the loan is for the re-development of an existing five-storey commercial building in Liverpool ("T** Met*******") to create a thirteen-storey block of 312 apartments. I see no reference to any "plots"? Are we discussing the same loan?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Dec 4, 2020 11:33:17 GMT
Nov 30, 2020 23:06:41 GMT memy said:I certainly understand your point however, assuming your calculations are correct, you still need £9k a plot to pay you off and I am not so sure (to say the least...) this would be possible. ..... Dec 1, 2020 16:04:00 GMT memy said:Since the beginning I have said that I am concerned about this situation because I ( just like the other plots' owners) have been stuck with this investment for almost 4 years. I have also clearly said that, as I have totally lost faith in the developer, I would like preferential creditors to force this company into liquidation. ..... Dec 3, 2020 0:37:46 GMT memy said:5K is the reservation deposit but you need to pay 35% of the purchase price on exchange. As far as I know, they have sold less than 100 plots. Regarding the deposit protection, the insurer has confirmed the developer has not paid the premium. Memy, forgive me for coming late to this discussion, but I am confused by your references to buying "plots" in this development. According to the loan description, the loan is for the re-development of an existing five-storey commercial building in Liverpool ("T** Met*******") to create a thirteen-storey block of 312 apartments. I see no reference to any "plots"? Are we discussing the same loan? I believe "plots" in this instance refers to the future apartments, sold "off plan" to investors For as long as the borrower continues to pay interest, even much reduced, it indicates a clear intent to refinance the loan and retain control of the site. Else why continue to hand over hard cash to MT? A refinance is very obviously the best chance for MT lenders to get their capital back, hopefully along with some or all of the unpaid accrued interest. Any number of LPA Receiver-driven sales show that these typically result in below-market bids and significant lender haircuts. I'll willingly take 25% interim interest (the balance still accruing, of course) until it becomes clear that all refinance routes are impossible. ps. I'm equally confused about what memy hopes to gain by cheer-leading for Receivers to be appointed.
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Post by memy on Dec 4, 2020 12:28:01 GMT
First of all, when I talk about plots I am talking about the units you buy off-plan.
Secondly, I am a portfolio landlord therefore, with all the due respect, I think I know what I am talking about.
As I said, I have already been in a similar situation in the past.
A few years ago I bought an off-plan property in Birmingham city centre. The developer went into administration (another scam...), no premium was paid to the insurer therefore no chance to get the deposit back through an insurance claim, the land was sold on auction to an experienced developer who contact me immediately offering the option to get the deposit back or to wait until the building was completed. I chose the second one.
Why did the developer do that? Because, as I said, when you buy an off plan property, you register an unilateral notice in the land registry which remains in force even if the developer goes into administration. Any developer will have to deal with me, once he buys the land.
I do not live under the illusion that I will rank ahead of MT on repayment of monies because I know that MT is a preferential creditor.
And actually, this is exactly the reason why I do not understand why MT is not acting, being a preferential creditor.
I perfectly know that there will not be money left for investors like me after repaying the loan but at least there will be an auction and another developer will buy the land. After 4 years I am tired of waiting with my money stuck in this scam.
In any case, I think you are missing the point here. These people are fraudsters, they have no interest in completing the building and no interest in paying back the loan. if you don't understand this, there is nothing else to talk about.
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Post by memy on Dec 4, 2020 12:52:18 GMT
I lost you. In the case of an administration, how do you expect to recover your deposit if lenders would only recover part? Do you believe that you rank ahead of MT lenders? Well said TitoPuente this person is under the illusion that they rank ahead of MT on repayment of monies. If it goes into Administration, it is more than likely that all registered UNI's will be ruled out by a Judge, thereby enabling an Administrator to realise a higher sale price for an unencumbered site. Whilst a 25% repayment of the monthly interest has been received, this is the second tranche received in a couple of weeks and shows the Borrowers willingness to make promised payments. As for Development funding, the Borrower is arranging a Bridging Loan to repay the MT loan, not Development funding. Only a few weeks ago, work started on a private development of 300 plus apartments no more than 500 yards from this site. So there is still confidence in the residential market. Javdee, you say that the borrower is arranging a bridging loan to repay the MT Loan. I don't believe that this is case but let's say that this is true. Do you know for how long this is going on? Have you received any evidence about it? Do you know who is the new lender? I would love to get more details about this point, if you have them.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 4, 2020 13:30:41 GMT
First of all, when I talk about plots I am talking about the units you buy off-plan. Secondly, I am a portfolio landlord therefore, with all the due respect, I think I know what I am talking about. As I said, I have already been in a similar situation in the past. A few years ago I bought an off-plan property in Birmingham city centre. The developer went into administration (another scam...), no premium was paid to the insurer therefore no chance to get the deposit back through an insurance claim, the land was sold on auction to an experienced developer who contact me immediately offering the option to get the deposit back or to wait until the building was completed. I chose the second one. Why did the developer do that? Because, as I said, when you buy an off plan property, you register an unilateral notice in the land registry which remains in force even if the developer goes into administration. Any developer will have to deal with me, once he buys the land. I do not live under the illusion that I will rank ahead of MT on repayment of monies because I know that MT is a preferential creditor. And actually, this is exactly the reason why I do not understand why MT is not acting, being a preferential creditor. I perfectly know that there will not be money left for investors like me after repaying the loan but at least there will be an auction and another developer will buy the land. After 4 years I am tired of waiting with my money stuck in this scam. In any case, I think you are missing the point here. These people are fraudsters, they have no interest in completing the building and no interest in paying back the loan. if you don't understand this, there is nothing else to talk about. Are you overlooking recent case history in relation to paragraph 71 schedule B1 Insolvency Act? The administrators can apply to the court to sell the security free of secured interests. If granted that removes any need for a purchasing developer to deal with you as the usual provisions preventing overreach of a UN1 protecting a sale contract are removed. Some MT lenders will be familiar with this as recent case history relates to another MT loan. It has also appeared in relation to Lendy Huddersfield loans and more recently a development in Newcastle UL If the loan is put into recovery, then a potentially protracted process will be begin, with extra costs and on precedent a poor outcome (as you have alluded to the market in Liverpool is bad) Alternatively, currently lenders get some return on their investment, the possibility of a better outcome and arent actually losing anything by waiting . Could even be the market conditions improve in Liverpool as the council takes action to get building projects going and off the market.
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