angrysaveruk
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Say No To T.D.S
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 6, 2017 19:32:44 GMT
Like alot of people I try to assess risk in terms of a worst case scenario loss or doomsday scenario. On the 2 platforms I invest in the worst case loss for Zopa in my mind is somewhere in the region of -30%, and on Assets Captial somewhere in the region of -20%. These are pretty non scientific figures but give an idea of what I expect I could lose if it hit the fan. It would be interesting to hear what other people think their worst case losses could be on the platforms they invest in.
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macq
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Post by macq on Jun 6, 2017 19:52:54 GMT
i was not thinking about it - so thanks for the extra worry Would think losses of 20-30% are as you say a doomsday scenario or more like a stock market correction
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starfished
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Post by starfished on Jun 6, 2017 21:34:43 GMT
Doomsday = Losing 100%
The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. Would be royally pissed off though.
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macq
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Post by macq on Jun 7, 2017 7:04:46 GMT
Doomsday = Losing 100% The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. Would be royally pissed off though. 100%=Armageddon, so you would not have a lifestyle or time to be p****d off
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 7, 2017 9:14:20 GMT
Doomsday = Losing 100% The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. Would be royally pissed off though. 100%=Armageddon, so you would not have a lifestyle or time to be p****d off Or, possibly, fraud.
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Jun 12, 2017 16:31:22 GMT
Doomsday = Losing 100% The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. Would be royally pissed off though. 100%=Armageddon, so you would not have a lifestyle or time to be p****d off 100% loss on one loan is not only entirely possible it is inevitable given time. 100% loss of a platform is very unlikely but not impossible. 100% of a well diversified portfolio would indeed be Armageddon, but again not impossible.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 12, 2017 17:57:30 GMT
The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. I changed financial advisors about 4 years ago. When the new man asked what my attitude to risk was, I said that if I lost £20k it wouldn't ruin my like, but I'd be bloody miffed.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jun 12, 2017 21:53:17 GMT
The question then becomes would I be able to maintain lifestyle / adjust accordingly. I changed financial advisors about 4 years ago. When the new man asked what my attitude to risk was, I said that if I lost £20k it wouldn't ruin my like, but I'd be bloody miffed. Depends what percentage of your net worth 20k is. Definitely stay aware from shares if you would be miffed at losing that much on paper
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Post by laidbackgjr on Jun 13, 2017 7:39:10 GMT
One of the big things I consider with the worst case scenario is not necessarily the amount of loss - but the time it may take to recover my money - I'm thinking mainly in case of platform failure - I can see it taking a long time for the recovery steps to result in any investment being returned.
So far all my P2P investments are making gains - so it's nice to have that growth 'in the bank' should a period of losses arise - but for me it's a long term investment and I'm still confident in long term growth via a well diversified p2p portfolio.
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nrw
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Post by nrw on Jun 13, 2017 7:48:06 GMT
1) I am diversified across asset classes.
2) Within P2P / altfi I am diversified across lending strategy (SME, secured, consumer etc.).
3) Within lending strategy I am diversified across platforms.
4) Within platforms I am diversified across loans.
Further up this thread people have assessed the 'very unlikely' / 'impossible' chance of 100% loss on a given platform. I disagree. However, across the P2P asset class as a whole I agree.
The greatest risk of total loss clearly lies in 4), the least diversified element of the 'funnel'. Ergo if we're talking about the risk of total loss on a single platform, then I think it's significant.
The risk of near/total loss lies less in the loan book and more in the platform. If the platform goes pop - which some of them definitely will (it's not if, it's when) - then the risk of a near/total loss is high. Particularly if fraud comes to bear. How a disorderly administration of the loan book is then managed will be key - and performance will likely be governed by the type of loan book as much as the quality of the loan book. A platform which has a single debtor secured against a £100m property will be easy to administer, likely returning the bulk of lenders' cash. On the other hand, a platform which has 100k £1k unsecured SME loans will be an expensive nightmare to administer and there will likely be low recovery for lenders.
That's a long answer to a short question - the quick answer is: looking at any individual platform, the risk of losing the bulk of your loan book is significant (and not priced into the returns). Across the entire P2P asset class, the risk of losing the bulk of your loan book is modest.
IMHO those lenders who think they are adopting a safe strategy, focussing on platforms returning sub-5%, are adopting the riskiest strategy. Their returns simply do not reflect their risk - they are not making hay whilst the sun shines, whilst remaining fully exposed to 'armageddon'. Does any investment make sense with an upside capped at 3% (pre-tax) and an unlimited 100% downside?
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stub8535
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personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
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Post by stub8535 on Jun 13, 2017 9:52:12 GMT
I do wonder what level of protection investors would get if the company administering the order book for a defaulted company is run by the same management team as the original platform? This is not theoretical. Have a look at who manages your choice of platforms in default and find out the ownership if you want to avoid. Of course, platforms could put an agreement in place with a totally disconnected company for such a scenario that is legally clear on terms including charges.
Maybe something the FCA would like to consider.
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JamesFrance
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Port Grimaud 1974
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Post by JamesFrance on Jun 13, 2017 10:10:23 GMT
IMHO those lenders who think they are adopting a safe strategy, focussing on platforms returning sub-5%, are adopting the riskiest strategy. Their returns simply do not reflect their risk - they are not making hay whilst the sun shines, whilst remaining fully exposed to 'armageddon'. Does any investment make sense with an upside capped at 3% (pre-tax) and an unlimited 100% downside? I completely agree with this. One of my largest invested amounts was in a platform which has given me over 15% return on buyback guarantee loans over the last 2 years, but I am now moving elsewhere as that return is no longer available there. Most platforms begin well and I choose to accept the risk if they seem ok but leave when the rates drop with increasing demand.
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macq
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Post by macq on Jun 13, 2017 11:04:15 GMT
IMHO those lenders who think they are adopting a safe strategy, focussing on platforms returning sub-5%, are adopting the riskiest strategy. Their returns simply do not reflect their risk - they are not making hay whilst the sun shines, whilst remaining fully exposed to 'armageddon'. Does any investment make sense with an upside capped at 3% (pre-tax) and an unlimited 100% downside? I completely agree with this. One of my largest invested amounts was in a platform which has given me over 15% return on buyback guarantee loans over the last 2 years, but I am now moving elsewhere as that return is no longer available there. Most platforms begin well and I choose to accept the risk if they seem ok but leave when the rates drop with increasing demand. I have invested across all rates on P2P as it feels safer to do it that way.To be fair, the like's of L***b** and L******W***S do not seem to come up with many posts on here about missed payments etc compared to some of my higher paying platforms which may be why some people trust them more.I would agree that to only be in sub 5% is a mistake but some people probably only have that one account and see it more like a BS account and some of the marketing of these accounts is trying to reinforce that idea.Within ss funds one of my bigger holdings is up 65% on the year but i still have trackers and other funds for a spread as i don't know when the sun will stop shining. Apart from fraud or failure of a platform i still think the biggest risk is putting in money that you may need straight away.Come a recession no matter what the rate- 5% or 15% the more time you have to let a recovery on a loan happen, the better your results will be.
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james21
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Post by james21 on Jun 13, 2017 12:05:51 GMT
As already mentioned in other posts I would say the major risk to loss is not the loans themselves but: Platforms going bust will the segregated loans be safe? (I dont know) Fraud; within the platform operating business or connected with it ie where the money is kept/administered (eg banks and solicitors) Cyber theft at any level in the money chain associated with the platform (inc platform operator, banks/solicitors)
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Post by jackpease on Jun 13, 2017 12:25:21 GMT
>5% loans not really safe Not much talk of 'property' in all this! I indulge in the high rollers eg 12% loans but they are pretty well all property. Not wishing to be overexposed to property, i invest in 'low risk 5%' loans which i would rather describe as 'lower risk NOT property' based loans.
Property may well be 'secured' but as we know the valuations can be iffy and in the event for commercial property in particular, the property may become unsellable in the event of a slump in confidence. I am less sure that asset backing is quite the safety net that many imagine. I see many signs that property has peaked not least in the MT and Lendy secondary markets.
If my keep my low-return loans to businesses/consumers on platforms that have defaults going out as new loans come in ie stable, I reckon that'll just keep me above inflation after fees and losses.
Jack P
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