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Post by sebulon on Jul 10, 2017 19:35:29 GMT
Hi,
As Finn this is not clear to me. Could someone be kind and clarify it? I ask with an example:
Value estimate of asset: £50000
First charge holder’s loan: £30000
Second charge holder’s loan: £10000
So total LTV would be 80%.
Now it comes evident borrower can’t pay loan back.
Luckily buyer A shows up and makes offer to buy asset at a price of £32000. This would make first charge holder happy but not second charge holder: he/she would get back only £2000 (let's forget interest here).
Now finally my question: Who actually can decide the selling price that is accepted? If first charge holder can alone make that decision then of course those second charge loans are very dangerous for lenders. I mean first charge holder may not bother at all about second charge holder’s problems.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 10, 2017 19:47:47 GMT
The first charge holder shouldn't, and doesn't, care a whit about the second charge holder(*). Administrators will be appointed to wind up the company / realise assets as needed. In theory they don't much care about anything other than paying for their charges, paying off the staff, and paying off the tax man. Anything left is then able to be distributed to whoever holds charges on the security available. The administrators don't typically care who has it, or what precedence it has. If they realise the assets to the best of their ability they have discharged their responsibilities.
RM
(*) You might envisage a situation where a loan from one platform / provider had multiple tranches with different security and different interest rates. I suspect it would get messy.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 10, 2017 21:43:10 GMT
The first charge holder shouldn't, and doesn't, care a whit about the second charge holder(*). Administrators will be appointed to wind up the company / realise assets as needed. In theory they don't much care about anything other than paying for their charges, paying off the staff, and paying off the tax man. Anything left is then able to be distributed to whoever holds charges on the security available. The administrators don't typically care who has it, or what precedence it has. If they realise the assets to the best of their ability they have discharged their responsibilities. RM (*) You might envisage a situation where a loan from one platform / provider had multiple tranches with different security and different interest rates. I suspect it would get messy. I dont think a lot of this is correct. For a start it is more likely to be a receiver that is appointed than administrators under a fixed charge and they are an agent of the borrower so would be required to achieve a fair sale price. Therefore while they are likely to be appointed by the first charge holder, they would have some regard for the second charge holder by default, they wouldnt just sell the security at any price. In the case of admiinistration, there are priorities of recovery, their charges are first but all fixed charges, first & second, rank ahead of staff and certainly ahead of HMRC who are an unsecured creditor. I would say that the answer to the question is that the administrators/recievers would decide if the price was resonable and then recommend to the first charge holder to accept. The second charge holder would indeed have to accept a loss. Now dualinvestor can give a professional opinion and tell me how wrong I am. Edit It should be pointed out that first charge loans with a second charge are also potentially dangerous as the second charge holder could default the loan even if the first charge loan wasnt in arrears. The first charge holder would be able to appoint the receiver but the loan would still be in recovery and out of the lenders control
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 10, 2017 23:56:16 GMT
It's rare that I don't appreciate being corrected by somebody who knows more about something than me, so +1 ilmoro .
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Post by sebulon on Jul 11, 2017 6:47:21 GMT
The first charge holder shouldn't, and doesn't, care a whit about the second charge holder(*). Administrators will be appointed to wind up the company / realise assets as needed. In theory they don't much care about anything other than paying for their charges, paying off the staff, and paying off the tax man. Anything left is then able to be distributed to whoever holds charges on the security available. The administrators don't typically care who has it, or what precedence it has. If they realise the assets to the best of their ability they have discharged their responsibilities. RM (*) You might envisage a situation where a loan from one platform / provider had multiple tranches with different security and different interest rates. I suspect it would get messy. I dont think a lot of this is correct. For a start it is more likely to be a receiver that is appointed than administrators under a fixed charge and they are an agent of the borrower so would be required to achieve a fair sale price. Therefore while they are likely to be appointed by the first charge holder, they would have some regard for the second charge holder by default, they wouldnt just sell the security at any price. In the case of admiinistration, there are priorities of recovery, their charges are first but all fixed charges, first & second, rank ahead of staff and certainly ahead of HMRC who are an unsecured creditor. I would say that the answer to the question is that the administrators/recievers would decide if the price was resonable and then recommend to the first charge holder to accept. The second charge holder would indeed have to accept a loss. Now dualinvestor can give a professional opinion and tell me how wrong I am. Edit It should be pointed out that first charge loans with a second charge are also potentially dangerous as the second charge holder could default the loan even if the first charge loan wasnt in arrears. The first charge holder would be able to appoint the receiver but the loan would still be in recovery and out of the lenders control Many thanks! Could you please give short definition of administrator and receiver?
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 11, 2017 8:01:05 GMT
Fixed Charge Receiver - appointed under the terms of a fixed charge to handle recovery of a specific asset and has powers per the terms of the charge (often called LPA receiver though Law of Property only gives power to manage asset not sell) Administrator - appointed under a floating charge [or by directors] to manage insolvent company with aim of keeping it going or realising assets to pay creditors if unable. Main difference is that receiver only deals with specific asset and doesnt have any role in operation of a company. Can have an adminstrator and receiver at same time. Note ... all based on my understanding, not a professional or expert nara guide
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Post by dualinvestor on Jul 11, 2017 9:52:24 GMT
Everything ilmoro saysin his first post on this thread is correct, however there is a small possibility that the first charge holder will not use a insolvency procedure, administration, receivership or liquidation, at all. They could sell as mortagee in possession, if so should they sell at undervalue there is no process to overturn the sale unless the purchaser had colluded. The only remedy in that case would be to sue the first charge holder in which case the first hurdle would be to establish that the best price had not been achieved in the circumstances but in the absence of such a challenge there is little or nothing subsequent chargeholders, other creditors or the debtor themselves can do about it.
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Jul 11, 2017 10:47:03 GMT
Thought provoking post. Administration puts an 8 week brake on actions whilst receivership can be instantaneous call and possibly usage removal on the asset.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 11, 2017 11:12:14 GMT
Everything ilmoro saysin his first post on this thread is correct, however there is a small possibility that the first charge holder will not use a insolvency procedure, administration, receivership or liquidation, at all. They could sell as mortagee in possession, if so should they sell at undervalue there is no process to overturn the sale unless the purchaser had colluded. The only remedy in that case would be to sue the first charge holder in which case the first hurdle would be to establish that the best price had not been achieved in the circumstances but in the absence of such a challenge there is little or nothing subsequent chargeholders, other creditors or the debtor themselves can do about it. Thanks. One query if a first charge holder initiates proceedings to become mortgagee in posession can the second charge holder appoint a receiver/administrator to preempt this and possibly improve their position. The first charge holder would probably appoint their own receiver instead but it would put the process under an 'independent' party not the first charge holder.
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Jul 11, 2017 15:07:36 GMT
Have we not seen issues of first and second chargeholder disagreements on who should appoint the receiver on platforms? First chargeholder slapping second down in no uncertain terms. Could it be that the law would allow a second chargeholder to take precedence over the first in receivership? Administration, however, seems to muddy the waters and stops chargeholders seizing assets for 8 weeks. Some borrowers may be tempted to play for time, for good reasons or bad, in order to obtain a better solution for all or, in the latter case, themselves.
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stevio
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Post by stevio on Jul 11, 2017 15:53:57 GMT
Thanks to ilmoro for the link
Does anyone have any more further reading links?
Also, do I remember correctly, did AB put in place a clause that restricted the sale price in one of their loans due to it being 2nd charge?
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Post by dan1 on Jul 11, 2017 16:59:01 GMT
Also, do I remember correctly, did AB put in place a clause that restricted the sale price in one of their loans due to it being 2nd charge? I think you may be referring to 100050 in which the first charge holder entered into a Deed of Priority restricting the 1st charge holders claim and preventing a sale unless both charges are satisfied.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 11, 2017 17:29:07 GMT
Could it be that the law would allow a second chargeholder to take precedence over the first in receivership? A second charge holder could force a sale (by way of a receiver), and the first charge holder would have very little say in the matter - the receiver will have to act in the best interests of both parties (and all creditors), but the 1st charge would take precedent. It does surprise me how little say charge holders have when a receiver is appointed In theory, the 2nd charge holder would only proceed with action if they thought that the sale of the security is sufficient to cover at least the first charge, otherwise, there will be nothing left for them which means any action is pointless - however, there may be charges over business assets not covered by the first charge Almost impossible. It is unlikely that a second charge would be able to force a sale as the first charge holder has the right to appoint a reciever of their choosing and almost certainly would. The first charge holder would still have to release their charge if they refused to do so the second charge receiver would probably resign and they would be back to stage one plus a load of extra costs to be covered (I assume after the first charge had been met). Pretty unlikely that the first charge holder wouldnt also have a floating charge covering business assets www.bridgingandcommercial.co.uk/article-desc-2841_ask-the-rece
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 11, 2017 17:36:19 GMT
Thanks to ilmoro for the link Does anyone have any more further reading links? practical law is usually worth googling specific terms. eg administration
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