registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 15, 2017 10:43:03 GMT
Are you sure her eyes had not just glazed over with all those unrelatable numbers ? Meanie .
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macq
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Post by macq on Jul 15, 2017 10:46:17 GMT
no not a worthwhile risk return(but still better then a cash ISA )but was based on your 12 loans with one default which is why most people have a lot more loans to spread the risk. Some one like Lending works spreads your money across a minimum of a hundred loans to get 4.8% on a 5 year account. Hopefully we should be able to run a self invested product on higher rate loans in the same way(assuming you hold the loans to term which many people do not) Having more loans to spread the risk would only work if default rate was lower than 1/12th. know we are working off your example but the idea was to get away from your idea of a 1/12 default risk hence more loans. Think many people myself included at times,look at a month or a years return as to how our investment is going it may be better if you look over say 5 years to see what your annualized return is with hopefully some of the bumps smoothed out. Not sure any company can tell people what the default rate is only what it has been which while a guide is not set in stone
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Jul 15, 2017 10:53:56 GMT
Increasing diversity reduces the risk of a big loss compared to portfolio size, but it also reduces the chances of none or small losses. It merely makes the probability of loss closer to the average across the investment universe.
IMHO the optimum strategy is to do a certain amount of DD dependent on your time and interest and weed out a proportion of opportunities which do not appeal, but otherwise go for maximum diversification.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 15, 2017 11:24:52 GMT
What is historical default rate on FC across C-E loans ? How many loans ablrate had up to date ?
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daveb4
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Post by daveb4 on Jul 15, 2017 14:42:40 GMT
An influencer here is time. You need diversification to reduce potential of big loss but you also have to offset it against your time? I personally am spending possibly too much time monitoring 6/7 sites picking the good loans, trying to manage some risk by selling before term end all to try and improve rates as this is harder than it used to be. Yes I am probably averaging 11% after some losses BUT I could just bung the money across 3 sites with no real work and get 7/8% especially if you then start taking into consideration less tax as earning less interest etc etc.
I won't because unfortunately I am a little addicted and love it, but for some busy people it is getting tougher to get good rates without riskier loans, time for some could be a factor.
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Post by wiseclerk on Jul 15, 2017 14:56:22 GMT
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easylender
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Post by easylender on Jul 18, 2017 21:53:19 GMT
I tackled some of the maths on P2P loan diversification recently. To keep it simple the lending model is a loan that returns 10% interest in a single end of year repayment, and has a 5% bad debt rate with no recoveries. When invested in an infinite number of such loans the expected return is +4.5%, but we are concerned with what happens when the investment is spread over a much smaller numbers of equal sized loans.
Outcomes with 1 loan: Outcome No defaults One default Probability 95% 5% Return +10% -100% Outcomes with 2 loans: Outcome No defaults One default Two defaults Probability 90.25% 9.5% 0.25% Return +10% -45% -100% Outcomes with 3 loans: Outcome No defaults One default Two defaults Three defaults Probability 85.74% 13.54% 0.71% 0.01% Return +10% -27% -63% -100% This is called a binomial distribution. Inspection of these figures shows that by spreading the investment over a number of loans the probability of a total loss is rapidly reduced, but that the probability of making a more modest loss is increasing. This trend continues until with 10 loans the probability of a small loss is a staggering 40%. As the number of loans is increased further the probability of loss falls and rises in steadily decreasing waves. However it is not until there are more than 98 loans is the probability of loss always less than our original 5%.
This shows that modest diversification, whilst hugely reducing the chance of a total loss, has the (perhaps) unexpected effect of increasing the likelihood of making an overall small loss. I suspect that this effect is why many who dabble in P2P lending without adequate diversification come away with a bad experience.
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Jul 19, 2017 0:35:25 GMT
easylender . You're assuming independent defaults and that ignores default correlation. Even at low default intensities, the default correlation can easily dominate the higher moments of the return distribution. Most problematic default correlations across credit risky assets rise significantly during downturns compared to upturns, destroying the dimensionality of the portfolio. The assumed diversification will collapse.
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Post by stevefindlay on Jul 19, 2017 7:24:02 GMT
nellerdk newbiealert - diversification is a key aspect to managing risk in P2P lending. As noted above, it doesn't reduce your overall risk, but it can reduce the volatility of your outcomes, and provide you with a better risk-adjusted return (Sharpe ratio) for your portfolio. As your upside is capped in lending (the best you can do is get your interest and capital back) the outcomes are skewed, and so the best way to optimise returns is to manage your downside risks (you can spend lots of time loan picking for the "best ones"; the sole purpose of that activity is to avoid the "worse ones", not to try to identify "home runs"). Enabling easy diversification is a core feature of our service at BondMason, and one of the reasons we set up the platform in the first place (please excuse the mention) - with Autobid clients can choose a minimum of 50-100+ positions. This takes an average of 4 weeks to get fully allocated, but doesn't require any effort from our clients, and all loans are hand curated by the team. Whilst clients end up with different portfolios, their performance over a 12 months period tends to be close to the average performance (more so for those with 100+ positions) - demonstrating the value of diversification. In time we intend to implement a 200+ loan option, which we feel will enable even better (more consistent) outcomes. But you do need to be patient during the initial allocation phase...
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jul 19, 2017 8:18:19 GMT
Insufficient diversification is one complaint about Bondmason. Standard 2% with only the option to go to 1% diversification means investing large amounts produces large loans to individual borrowers. Any crystallised losses at 2% make a big hole in interest earned. Sounds like 0.5% on the way?
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jul 19, 2017 11:50:26 GMT
I tackled some of the maths on P2P loan diversification recently. To keep it simple the lending model is a loan that returns 10% interest in a single end of year repayment, and has a 5% bad debt rate with no recoveries. When invested in an infinite number of such loans the expected return is +4.5%, but we are concerned with what happens when the investment is spread over a much smaller numbers of equal sized loans. Outcomes with 1 loan: Outcome No defaults One default Probability 95% 5% Return +10% -100% Outcomes with 2 loans: Outcome No defaults One default Two defaults Probability 90.25% 9.5% 0.25% Return +10% -45% -100% Outcomes with 3 loans: Outcome No defaults One default Two defaults Three defaults Probability 85.74% 13.54% 0.71% 0.01% Return +10% -27% -63% -100% This is called a binomial distribution. Inspection of these figures shows that by spreading the investment over a number of loans the probability of a total loss is rapidly reduced, but that the probability of making a more modest loss is increasing. This trend continues until with 10 loans the probability of a small loss is a staggering 40%. As the number of loans is increased further the probability of loss falls and rises in steadily decreasing waves. However it is not until there are more than 98 loans is the probability of loss always less than our original 5%. This shows that modest diversification, whilst hugely reducing the chance of a total loss, has the (perhaps) unexpected effect of increasing the likelihood of making an overall small loss. I suspect that this effect is why many who dabble in P2P lending without adequate diversification come away with a bad experience. Very interesting analysis. As the number of loans gets large the distribution of the portfolios value approaches the normal distribution due to one of the most remarkable results in statistics called the Central Limit Theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem). Because this distribution is defined by the mean and standard deviation you can simply calculate the the mean and standard deviation of the portfolios value. One of the things with this analysis is it is assuming defaults are independent and uncorrelated. If you want to model correlated defaults you have to use something called a copula.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 12:51:19 GMT
Love the maths but there are couple of other views that might be worth looking at
Over in the stock market the books I read reckon that after you have diversified into about 35 shares you are getting closer to the overall stock market
Then there is that troublesome monkey that drives the maths machine. Do you feel comfortable losing say £1k if you do and you have £100k to invest then logically you would choose 100 loans, so each time one went wrong the monkey was not too unhappy.
Me, I aim for max loan 1% and still keep finding some very secure loans where I've gone up to 5% and some dodgy loans where 0.05% looked acceptable.
The real trick is take your time, "no one got wealthy by losing money fast".
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stub8535
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Post by stub8535 on Jul 19, 2017 13:49:35 GMT
Insufficient diversification is one complaint about Bondmason. Standard 2% with only the option to go to 1% diversification means investing large amounts produces large loans to individual borrowers. Any crystallised losses at 2% make a big hole in interest earned. Sounds like 0.5% on the way? The 0 5% promise must be coming by the same transport as money from Switzerland on another platform as its been so long.
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easylender
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Post by easylender on Jul 19, 2017 20:45:37 GMT
As there’s been some interest in my calculations please find attached a spreadsheet I created to do the arithmetic. It’s a bit limited, but you can change the default rate, the interest rate and the number of loans in order to explore the effects for yourselves. As explained earlier it models simple loans with a bullet repayment of principal and interest at the end of the year. This model applies to many property development loans. At this stage I’ve not modelled loans with monthly repayments of principal and interest and am not sure how different that would be. What I was attempting to do with this was find a rule for how many loans I needed to buy into to keep my probability of making a loss to a value that I’m comfortable with. Of course the big flaw in this is predicting the platform’s default rate. The older/larger platforms (Zopa and FC) have a track record of being close to predicted rates, whereas the default rates on some of the younger/smaller platforms vary wildly from year to year. diversification.ods (19.86 KB)
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Post by stevefindlay on Jul 20, 2017 14:02:00 GMT
Insufficient diversification is one complaint about Bondmason. Standard 2% with only the option to go to 1% diversification means investing large amounts produces large loans to individual borrowers. Any crystallised losses at 2% make a big hole in interest earned. Sounds like 0.5% on the way? The 0 5% promise must be coming by the same transport as money from Switzerland on another platform as its been so long. The 0.5% is already present insofar that Invoice Discount is capped at 0.5%per position (see @bobo comment above relating to spreading out riskier loan types). Also, when clients are Fully Invested, then the Diversification Optimisation System kicks in: this enables clients to be allocated positions relating to the new underlying loan, with 5 existing positions reducing by 20% each to make way. This means a client with a 1% setting; will end up with 5@ 0.8% and 1@ 1% instead of 5@ 1%. This can then continue for each new loan that comes in. Diversification is a key part of what we enable.
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