nw99
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Post by nw99 on Oct 24, 2017 20:05:33 GMT
I have only rarely had a problem with getting what I want on ablrate. I’m not sure bid limits are required. Agreed awesome platform
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mason
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Post by mason on Oct 24, 2017 20:15:14 GMT
You can always sell it if you don't want to keep it, i.e. bid now, decide later. That isn't true. You can't always sell. If you can sell, then you must do so at the market price, which may well be considerably less than what you paid. Loans often take several days to become tradeable on the secondary market (the recent fishy one being a good case in point), during which time other potential investors will have had plenty of time to do their DD and come to the same conclusion you did (if you think it's so bad you want to sell up immediately). If you take the attitude that you can buy up anything because there's always a greater fool onto whom you can offload, then you may get your fingers burned, as some people already have. Now if ablrate pledged to buy up any loan parts at par if people's post hoc due diligence threw up any red flags, that would be worth something, but the secondary market offers no such guarantees.
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blender
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Post by blender on Oct 24, 2017 20:53:44 GMT
You can always sell it if you don't want to keep it, i.e. bid now, decide later. That isn't true. You can't always sell. If you can sell, then you must do so at the market price, which may well be considerably less than what you paid. Loans often take several days to become tradeable on the secondary market (the recent fishy one being a good case in point), during which time other potential investors will have had plenty of time to do their DD and come to the same conclusion you did (if you think it's so bad you want to sell up immediately). If you take the attitude that you can buy up anything because there's always a greater fool onto whom you can offload, then you may get your fingers burned, as some people already have. Now if ablrate pledged to buy up any loan parts at par if people's post hoc due diligence threw up any red flags, that would be worth something, but the secondary market offers no such guarantees. I think this is a little distant from reality. There is a suggestion that the assessment of loans is objective and that, given time, people will come to the same 'right' conclusions about the prospects for a particular loan and will all try to desert certain loans, when some will fail to sell and will suffer loss. Where is the evidence? In the Ablrate loan book no loans are late, and two small ones have defaulted - those two loans were not ones which people were saying should be avoided, more like the opposite. I think that, once Ablrate has accepted these loans for the platform, the decisions of purchasers on the PM and SM are very subjective. The loans which I think are dodgy in the longer term are often ones which others buy up happily at a premium. I have always been able to shift those I do not wish to keep, but the purchasers are presumably happy - apart from the containers, which I did not expect to sell at 3%. They were just parked on the SM, honest. The general rule is that it is easier to sell the loans with the highest interest rate. Who is to say whether the purchaser or seller is the greater fool? That can only be decided retrospectively, from the outcome. I do agree that lenders should have the time to do their DD, and I think that Abl outlined a planned system, which is not yet available.
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garfield
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Post by garfield on Oct 24, 2017 21:12:59 GMT
I'm not knocking the points that have been made, in particular wrt to DD. The fishing assets loan is a good case. I agree bid limits are trickier and unlikely to satisfy everyone, whichever way things are done. But if a loan is filling quickly, I'm happy to put my bid in and assess later, subject to a favourable initial (quick) assessment, including asset class and whether it's to an existing or new borrower.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Oct 24, 2017 21:17:53 GMT
I have only rarely had a problem with getting what I want on ablrate. I’m not sure bid limits are required. Agreed awesome platform Precisely the sentiments that I would echo if I was a flipper, wanting to make quick profit, who didn’t want bid limits applied to smaller loans! ISTM a shame that the platform does nothing to prevent those that seek to gain at the expense of other investor's who, for whatever reason, will not be able to participate in the impending scramble. The unwillingness from ablrate to either initiate limits or provide any explanation for an apparent collusion with the flipping community can only detract from any awesomeness otherwise merited. Rant over!
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kermie
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Post by kermie on Oct 24, 2017 21:20:38 GMT
Fixed time would be nice. No, no, I've nothing better do do than waste an hour hitting F5, and then blindly buy into some random loan I've not had time to read.
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kermie
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Post by kermie on Oct 24, 2017 21:35:33 GMT
If I were a skeptic, I'd say it's almost like Ablrate want you to have no chance to do any duedil, want you to panic and feel pressured into buying the loan blind...
These are tactics used by barrow-boys down the market flogging housewives dish cloths and tea towels, not £500k loans.
Edit: with apologies to all housewives - men can do the washing up too!
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 24, 2017 21:46:04 GMT
Precisely the sentiments that I would echo if I was a flipper, wanting to make quick profit, who didn’t want bid limits applied to smaller loans! ISTM a shame that the platform does nothing to prevent those that seek to gain at the expense of other investor's who, for whatever reason, will not be able to participate in the impending scramble. The unwillingness from ablrate to either initiate limits or provide any explanation for an apparent collusion with the flipping community can only detract from any awesomeness otherwise merited. Rant over! Hi Ian, I can assure you that I am not a flipper
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Oct 25, 2017 7:46:29 GMT
Precisely the sentiments that I would echo if I was a flipper, wanting to make quick profit, who didn’t want bid limits applied to smaller loans! ISTM a shame that the platform does nothing to prevent those that seek to gain at the expense of other investor's who, for whatever reason, will not be able to participate in the impending scramble. The unwillingness from ablrate to either initiate limits or provide any explanation for an apparent collusion with the flipping community can only detract from any awesomeness otherwise merited. Rant over! Hi Ian, I can assure you that I am not a flipper Never thought, given my recollection of your postings, that you were. But you'll have to admit, surely, that anyone with the wherewithall and inclination might seek to ensure they retained their advantage. Having all the time in the world now, I usually get what I want too, but spare a thought for those who might rarely get anything (let alone what they want) due to their 9-5 committments.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Oct 25, 2017 8:44:13 GMT
They could at least give us the borrower's name. I don't understand the need for so much secrecy until launch; several platforms have pipeline pages that are more generous with information months in advance of going live.
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theshape
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Post by theshape on Oct 25, 2017 10:26:34 GMT
They could at least give us the borrower's name. I don't understand the need for so much secrecy until launch; several platforms have pipeline pages that are more generous with information months in advance of going live. Would be handy to have some idea before transferring funds to the platform. It's a pain to transfer funds for a loan you may end up not wanting or not be able (bid limits?) to invest in.
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r1200gs
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Post by r1200gs on Oct 25, 2017 11:10:36 GMT
I'm pretty new to this platform and just wasted part of my life trying to find details of the proposal before deciding how much to transfer, if anything. It's not there of course. So, bid and hope you can sell if you don't like what you got? A sort of a lucky dip? I've liked a lot of what I have seen of Ablrate, but this is not clever at all.
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mason
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Post by mason on Oct 25, 2017 11:47:00 GMT
That isn't true. You can't always sell. If you can sell, then you must do so at the market price, which may well be considerably less than what you paid. Loans often take several days to become tradeable on the secondary market (the recent fishy one being a good case in point), during which time other potential investors will have had plenty of time to do their DD and come to the same conclusion you did (if you think it's so bad you want to sell up immediately). If you take the attitude that you can buy up anything because there's always a greater fool onto whom you can offload, then you may get your fingers burned, as some people already have. Now if ablrate pledged to buy up any loan parts at par if people's post hoc due diligence threw up any red flags, that would be worth something, but the secondary market offers no such guarantees. I think this is a little distant from reality. There is a suggestion that the assessment of loans is objective and that, given time, people will come to the same 'right' conclusions about the prospects for a particular loan and will all try to desert certain loans, when some will fail to sell and will suffer loss. Where is the evidence? In the Ablrate loan book no loans are late, and two small ones have defaulted - those two loans were not ones which people were saying should be avoided, more like the opposite. I think that, once Ablrate has accepted these loans for the platform, the decisions of purchasers on the PM and SM are very subjective. The loans which I think are dodgy in the longer term are often ones which others buy up happily at a premium. I have always been able to shift those I do not wish to keep, but the purchasers are presumably happy - apart from the containers, which I did not expect to sell at 3%. They were just parked on the SM, honest. The general rule is that it is easier to sell the loans with the highest interest rate. Who is to say whether the purchaser or seller is the greater fool? That can only be decided retrospectively, from the outcome. I do agree that lenders should have the time to do their DD, and I think that Abl outlined a planned system, which is not yet available.
It hasn't happened at Ablrate yet, but there are examples on Lendy, Moneything and others, where DD has revealed facts that have led to a large amount of loan being very quickly listed on the secondary market preventing people from making an exit, though I'll admit those situations were different because people get time to read the documents before bidding started and the information came to light later (which is always a risk). There are many examples of things being turned up within hours of loan information being made available, but prior to the loan being opened for funding. However, people were not committed at that point, so simply opted not to invest. So you are correct, there is little evidence of what would happen in a situation where people are forced to bid without reading the proposal if they want to participate. By and large, other platforms don't operate that way. The key risks that would cause such events at the outset of the loan would be suspect valuations and issues over ownership/possession of the assets that form the loan security. In this case, the borrower is unlikely to be a major issue as it is not a new one. You may argue that if such issues were revealed the loan would not go ahead. If so, all I can say is I hope you are correct, but I'd rather not risk it.
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mason
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Post by mason on Oct 25, 2017 11:50:32 GMT
I'm pretty new to this platform and just wasted part of my life trying to find details of the proposal before deciding how much to transfer, if anything. It's not there of course. So, bid and hope you can sell if you don't like what you got? A sort of a lucky dip? I've liked a lot of what I have seen of Ablrate, but this is not clever at all. Lucky dip indeed. Which is fine if you just want to spread your risk across every loan without worrying about trying to select the better ones.
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pom
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Post by pom on Oct 25, 2017 11:54:57 GMT
I could be wrong (soon find out)....but I would expect a 600k loan to sit around long enough to check docs...I seem to recall the last one being rather smaller.
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