jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Nov 17, 2018 18:27:12 GMT
Seems some people listen & believe too much of the BBC's propaganda. Everyday nothing bit propaganda & fake news.
Amazingly BBC time & time again issue the same BS & yet the BBC is the perpetrator of propaganda.
Does anybody else see that the BBC has an agenda??
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 17, 2018 18:59:21 GMT
Give the EU two fingers and just Leave. They're bluffing, call their bluff and watch them implode. Blighty is made of sterner stuff and will undoubtedly survive, no doubt some initial pain, but eventually thrive from Leaving. Hasn't open talk now started of a "United States of Europe"? The EU is corrupt to the core, extremely wasteful, and if you're concerned about your sprogs not being able to freely work in the EU that's fine, saddle them with the vast and unrepayable debts of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and ? . Now that's one millstone I wouldn't want to hand down to my kids, and I don't even have any! EDIT / SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS:- May is a Remainer, so having her "negotiate" Leaving was ludicrously doomed from the start. Plus, IMHO, she is a very weak negotiator anyway. We should have looked the EU straight in the eye and gone in hard from the beginning. They'd have smelt it on us and we'd have achieved much more. Anyone who's been in business knows the strongest negotiation position is when you are prepared to walk, and your opponent knows it.If being assertive didn't work, fine, walk. We could have spent a LOT of time since meticulously planning for a successful Hard Brexit. No-one knows what will happen after a Hard, Soft, or Poached Brexit but the decision has been made so just DO IT.
Not with Theresa May or May not at the helm. As some have said, as soon as the referendum result came through we should have triggered article 50 - not wait 9 months to do so. For me, the saddest thing about this whole debacle is how undemocratic we seem to have become. Talk of people being "sold" this or that misses the point completely about what democracy is. Everyone over the age of 18 with some exceptions are allowed to cast votes in elections and referendums. Why are these people somehow more stupid not to see through any campaigning (legitimate or not) than their masters or than those who say "they" were miss-sold. No election has ever or can ever be completely free of influences but we trust our population to make the best decision under the circumstances. I don't recall any other election in this country being disputed so heavily and it really pees me off that we have gone down the road of many African and other states where the integrity of elections are routinely called into question. The democratic issues at stake are even more important than the question asked in the referendum since they guide our (unwritten) constitution and principles of governance. A referendum result should always be implemented as best as can be (which TM initially claimed) and a second referendum to overturn or even partially overturn a first referendum should only be considered once the first referendum result has been implemented ( and normally quite some time afterwards such are the power of referendums). This principle should apply to all referendums not just the one we've just had otherwise what is the point of them?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 17, 2018 19:06:24 GMT
Seems some people listen & believe too much of the BBC's propaganda. Everyday nothing bit propaganda & fake news.
Amazingly BBC time & time again issue the same BS & yet the BBC is the perpetrator of propaganda.
Does anybody else see that the BBC has an agenda??
Yes I do agree with that (your statement - not clicked the link yet). In the current connected world of social media (and forums!) etc I think the BBC will increasingly struggle to justify their licence fee since people have so many choices of where to get their news from and how to get closer to the source of the news. I always find it amusing that the BBC often use language about other media outlets as "...XYZ the state controlled TV/newspaper of XYZ country...." when the BBC themselves are paid for by this government and are essentially the voice of the government albeit with a thin veneer of Independence from it.
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Nov 17, 2018 19:11:18 GMT
Seems some people listen & believe too much of the BBC's propaganda. Everyday nothing bit propaganda & fake news.
Amazingly BBC time & time again issue the same BS & yet the BBC is the perpetrator of propaganda.
Does anybody else see that the BBC has an agenda??
Yes I do agree with that (your statement - not clicked the link yet). In the current connected world of social media (and forums!) etc I think the BBC will increasingly struggle to justify their licence fee since people have so many choices of where to get their news from and how to get closer to the source of the news. I always find it amusing that the BBC often use language about other media outlets as "...XYZ the state controlled TV/newspaper of XYZ country...." when the BBC themselves are paid for by this government and are essentially the voice of the government albeit with a thin veneer of Independence from it. Remember the BBC gets 5% of their funding from the EU!
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Nov 17, 2018 21:50:17 GMT
Of course May's form of Brexit delivers the electorates' vote. The referendum was simply a binary decision to stay or leave the EU. It said absolutely nothing about how we should leave; nothing about hard or soft Brexit, nothing about a Norway option, Canada+ option or whatever. It was thus likely to result in everyone being unhappy about the format of our leaving but it does mean we leave which satisfies the only box that had to be ticked.
One good reason for a representative democracy is to steer clear of trying to decide complex multi-dimensional issues with a simple yes/no referenda. Unsurprisingly, if you utilize a totally flawed metric, you get a totally flawed answer. Quelle surprise.
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Nov 17, 2018 23:22:27 GMT
There are only two choices either no deal, which is completely out or the deal the EU has offered, which is basically staying in and being controls by the EU.
It's not hard to understand. There isn't and never will be any other deal. Saying Brexiteers didn't know what they were voting for is just fake news.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 17, 2018 23:36:56 GMT
We had a good constructive run, but how about a referendum a dictatorially-inclined mod ending this thread? I think at this point we're only going to go rapidly downhill. I don't know about anyone else, but I have more than enough Brexit in my twitter feed.
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carolus
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Post by carolus on Nov 18, 2018 0:18:55 GMT
Give the EU two fingers and just Leave. They're bluffing, call their bluff and watch them implode. Blighty is made of sterner stuff and will undoubtedly survive, no doubt some initial pain, but eventually thrive from Leaving. Hasn't open talk now started of a "United States of Europe"? The EU is corrupt to the core, extremely wasteful, and if you're concerned about your sprogs not being able to freely work in the EU that's fine, saddle them with the vast and unrepayable debts of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and ? . Now that's one millstone I wouldn't want to hand down to my kids, and I don't even have any! EDIT / SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS:- May is a Remainer, so having her "negotiate" Leaving was ludicrously doomed from the start. Plus, IMHO, she is a very weak negotiator anyway. We should have looked the EU straight in the eye and gone in hard from the beginning. They'd have smelt it on us and we'd have achieved much more. Anyone who's been in business knows the strongest negotiation position is when you are prepared to walk, and your opponent knows it.If being assertive didn't work, fine, walk. We could have spent a LOT of time since meticulously planning for a successful Hard Brexit. No-one knows what will happen after a Hard, Soft, or Poached Brexit but the decision has been made so just DO IT.
An excellent satire of some of the more free-thinking members of the ERG.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 18, 2018 0:56:49 GMT
Give the EU two fingers and just Leave. They're bluffing, call their bluff and watch them implode. Blighty is made of sterner stuff and will undoubtedly survive, no doubt some initial pain, but eventually thrive from Leaving. Hasn't open talk now started of a "United States of Europe"? The EU is corrupt to the core, extremely wasteful, and if you're concerned about your sprogs not being able to freely work in the EU that's fine, saddle them with the vast and unrepayable debts of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and ? . Now that's one millstone I wouldn't want to hand down to my kids, and I don't even have any! EDIT / SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS:- May is a Remainer, so having her "negotiate" Leaving was ludicrously doomed from the start. Plus, IMHO, she is a very weak negotiator anyway. We should have looked the EU straight in the eye and gone in hard from the beginning. They'd have smelt it on us and we'd have achieved much more. Anyone who's been in business knows the strongest negotiation position is when you are prepared to walk, and your opponent knows it.If being assertive didn't work, fine, walk. We could have spent a LOT of time since meticulously planning for a successful Hard Brexit. No-one knows what will happen after a Hard, Soft, or Poached Brexit but the decision has been made so just DO IT.
An excellent satire of some of the more free-thinking members of the ERG. Just picking up on this, because I hadn't seen ozboy's earlier edit.... and I whilst he and I see eye to eye on many things, on this I don't think we agree at all :- * May a weak negotiator? No argument. * Looked the EU in the eye and gone hard from the beginning? Well, they're on suited King Queen and we're on off-suit Queen-Jack. They did smell it. The looked amongst their twenty seven staheholders and got unanimity on their postion (compare and contrast....). And they know we are reluctant to just walk. In essence ozboy that cuts both ways, and the EU knew it, and so far they've played their hand better. If this was Texas Hold'em the UK should have raised or folded. Calling is just... not a play. * Your last two points I don't disagree with, but I do think there's been risk run and cost accrued that would have better been avoided (bar the democratic deficit blah etc).
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 18, 2018 1:59:19 GMT
It could have been handled like this:-
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Post by dan1 on Nov 18, 2018 10:25:05 GMT
We had a good constructive run, but how about a referendum a dictatorially-inclined mod ending this thread? I think at this point we're only going to go rapidly downhill. I don't know about anyone else, but I have more than enough Brexit in my twitter feed. Oh no we shouldn't😁 (getting ready for panto season). /Mod hat off I don't see the harm provided it stays clean, and, NO, that's not an invitation!
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 18, 2018 13:49:41 GMT
There are only two choices either no deal, which is completely out or the deal the EU has offered, which is basically staying in and being controls by the EU.
It's not hard to understand. There isn't and never will be any other deal. Saying Brexiteers didn't know what they were voting for is just fake news.
No, that's not right. A no deal exit was NOT the clear offer at the first referendum - saying the electorate voted for that is wishful thinking (or "fake news" in your terms). If there are only two choices (I think there are more, but to follow your initial starting point) then it is Brexit under the negotiated terms or No Brexit.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 18, 2018 13:57:00 GMT
Of course May's form of Brexit delivers the electorates' vote. The referendum was simply a binary decision to stay or leave the EU. It said absolutely nothing about how we should leave; nothing about hard or soft Brexit, nothing about a Norway option, Canada+ option or whatever. It was thus likely to result in everyone being unhappy about the format of our leaving but it does mean we leave which satisfies the only box that had to be ticked. One good reason for a representative democracy is to steer clear of trying to decide complex multi-dimensional issues with a simple yes/no referenda. Unsurprisingly, if you utilize a totally flawed metric, you get a totally flawed answer. Quelle surprise. Funny that because everyone now claims to know exactly what it was the electorate voted for. Eerily it invariably seems to mirror their own views on the best form of Brexit.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Nov 18, 2018 13:59:31 GMT
Having read various papers on both the right and left, and listened to various politicians again on both the right and left, the only encouraging thing is that nobody (apart from May and some of her followers) thinks the current deal has any chance of succeeding. Too close to remaining for many on the right, not remaining nearly enough for those on the left. Electorally, Tories will be screwed if they pass this deal and Labour will be screwed if they support it. Going to make the next election fun.
If May faces a no-confidence vote (and not at all certain she will), I think she'll probably win, but she still won't get the deal through. Tories who are unhappy with her due to this deal won't be voting for the deal even if she survives any challenge. Her only chance is to gain enough support from Labour and that would do them massive damage.
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carolus
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Post by carolus on Nov 18, 2018 14:45:45 GMT
If May faces a no-confidence vote (and not at all certain she will), I think she'll probably win, but she still won't get the deal through.
It strikes me as incredibly revealing on several levels that ERG&co can't even organise 48 letters.
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