IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Oct 20, 2021 16:21:07 GMT
And, of course, then we hit the minor detail of 2011... One of the Tory sops to the LD coalition partners was a referendum on removing FPTP. But... the proposition actually put to the public was so wishy-washy that it got voted down 2:1 on a wave of indifference - just 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. Bingo, permission to ignore it for the foreseeable future. As with many things you could argue that the 58% who didn't vote were happy with the status quo. (much as you could argue those who didn't vote for Brexit were happy to stay in) I know one person who never votes, he says it's pointless as Labour always wins in the Valleys as it's drummed into people from an early age. He's what I would consider the archetypal Labour voter - Ex Miner, and Union rep at that, retired on a poor pension ( just over £60 a week ), Smoker who wears a flat cap and enjoys a pint, yet he says he could never vote Labour. The issue for me of having a Combo lets say 300 directly elected ( FPTP ) and 300 from a list covering regions and using something similar to the D'Hondt (sic) system is that despite the fact you'd get a more balanced Parliament you are also more likely to end up with the extremes ( both left and right ) being represented, once they get into Parliament it gives oxygen to their toxic views Better to have the extreme views represented and able to be shown for what they are than given the oxygen of unfair repression, amplified on social media now. And eventually the extreme gets into the main parties anyway (see: UKIP). I never thought it was a good argument for the democratic credentials of first past the post that it means a large proportion of the electorate don't get their view represented.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Oct 20, 2021 16:28:54 GMT
And, of course, then we hit the minor detail of 2011... One of the Tory sops to the LD coalition partners was a referendum on removing FPTP. But... the proposition actually put to the public was so wishy-washy that it got voted down 2:1 on a wave of indifference - just 42% of the electorate bothered to vote. Bingo, permission to ignore it for the foreseeable future. As with many things you could argue that the 58% who didn't vote were happy with the status quo. (much as you could argue those who didn't vote for Brexit were happy to stay in) I know one person who never votes, he says it's pointless as Labour always wins in the Valleys as it's drummed into people from an early age. He's what I would consider the archetypal Labour voter - Ex Miner, and Union rep at that, retired on a poor pension ( just over £60 a week ), Smoker who wears a flat cap and enjoys a pint, yet he says he could never vote Labour. The issue for me of having a Combo lets say 300 directly elected ( FPTP ) and 300 from a list covering regions and using something similar to the D'Hondt (sic) system is that despite the fact you'd get a more balanced Parliament you are also more likely to end up with the extremes ( both left and right ) being represented, once they get into Parliament it gives oxygen to their toxic views And this is one of the worst aspects of first past the post. For most people in most seats, their votes simply do not count. They are safe seats that never change. For General Elections, I've always lived in a safe seat for one or other of the two main parties. The only time my vote has counted has been for London elections (where we have preferential voting for Mayor - although barely, because you still have to put Labour or Tory as second choice as only the top two go through - why they cant do a proper AV system I don't know (and the Tories want to change it back to FPTP anyway!) - and PR for the chamber) and the Euros (where there was a multi member PR system - now of course gone). A system that means people done feel their vote counts cannot be a good one for democracy.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 20, 2021 16:42:09 GMT
Apart from referring you back to the first sentence of the post you quoted... when did political parties ever stick to a manifesto promise? "oven-ready deal"?Sure - hence why Labour probably needs to lose big again before it might just agree to an electoral alliance with reform on the agenda. But more likely the self-interest of the 2 main parties persists as you say. I'm interested in the many (or possibly one) members who have referred to an oven ready deal?
Has nobody ever cooked such a meal, had one mouthful, chucked it in the bin, and gone down the chip shop? Oven ready can just as easily mean unpalatable as good or tasty.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 20, 2021 16:42:32 GMT
As with many things you could argue that the 58% who didn't vote were happy with the status quo. (much as you could argue those who didn't vote for Brexit were happy to stay in) Indeed you could. But using it to claim 86% are happy with FPTP is a stretch, given it was asking about one specific form of voting reform, AV - which even the electoral reform society say "isn't PR". www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/alternative-vote/Has he ever explained his logic? Who would he vote for? He'd vote Tory, He sees Labour as supporting the "I don't see why I should work, the state should support me group" and given he is financially worse off that some others near him who never paid into a pension I can see his point, Unfortunately I could point you at families in this area when Grandparents didn't work for years, Parents have never worked and the kids go straight onto the "dole" and know how to play the system. Very true. If there was an even balance of votes to seats, then there would have been 12 BNP MPs and 20 UKIP in 2010. Would the Monster raving looney party get any seats ?Did they get denied the "oxygen of publicity"? Did that actually ever achieve anything? In the mid-late 00s, the BNP won a shedload of council seats across the UK, peaking at nearly 60 seats - as well as two MEPs. They all fell out, resigned from the party, or were drummed out of their seats. By 2018, they'd lost their last one. Giving protest votes to half-wits is one thing, but giving them actual power shows them up as what they are. They aren't the underdog saviour, they're shouty knuckle-dragging reprobates. one of my concerns is that given my representative is from the opposite party to that which I normally support I know I could still approach him, I'm not sure were I a Single mum from Afghanistan I'd be willing or able to approach my representative were they a BNP member
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 20, 2021 16:49:23 GMT
Has he ever explained his logic? Who would he vote for? He'd vote Tory, He sees Labour as supporting the "I don't see why I should work, the state should support me group" and given he is financially worse off that some others near him who never paid into a pension I can see his point, Unfortunately I could point you at families in this area when Grandparents didn't work for years, Parents have never worked and the kids go straight onto the "dole" and know how to play the system. <rolls eyes> Bet those "families" have... alternative income streams... and they aren't just subsisting on the basic social security benefits system... So what would he rather? People died of starvation on the street if they didn't, couldn't find work?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 20, 2021 16:52:35 GMT
I know one person who never votes, he says it's pointless as Labour always wins in the Valleys And this is one of the worst aspects of first past the post. For most people in most seats, their votes simply do not count. They are safe seats that never change. I live in one. 63% of the vote in 2019, second place got 14%. Closest it's been was 2010, when it was 51.8% to 31%. BUT that's on a turnout always around 72%... The other 38% could change the result, if only they stopped being complacent. Even most of the people who vote based on the colour of the ribbon acknowledge the incumbent is a waste of oxygen. Shove a blue ribbon on a sheep, it'd get at least as big a majority.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 20, 2021 17:11:42 GMT
There are some here in Wales who think he boundary commission is rigging the next election, comments such as "Wales should have more seats not less" the people making these sort of comments amaze me they are usually quite educated people yet unable to comprehend that having 70,000 or so voters in each constituency is a good thing, rather than some at 50,000 and some at nearly 100,000.
Wales will lose seats because it is currently over represented,
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Oct 20, 2021 17:17:02 GMT
And this is one of the worst aspects of first past the post. For most people in most seats, their votes simply do not count. They are safe seats that never change. I live in one... Ditto. And my MP's Nadine Dorries. It could hardly be worse. On the subject of party vs person, my home used to be in the Euro constituency of Bedfordshire and Milton Keynes (this was when there were Euro seats with single MPs). During the Blair years the seat was pretty marginal. In 1994 (I think) the Conservative candidate, who was standing against an anti-European trade unionist, was Edwina Currie. That was the one and only time I've voted Tory. Edwina was an effective operator and might have got things done for us if she'd been elected. But she lost heavily. The anti-European won, went off to Brussels, and was never heard of again.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 20, 2021 17:18:15 GMT
He'd vote Tory, He sees Labour as supporting the "I don't see why I should work, the state should support me group" and given he is financially worse off that some others near him who never paid into a pension I can see his point, Unfortunately I could point you at families in this area when Grandparents didn't work for years, Parents have never worked and the kids go straight onto the "dole" and know how to play the system. <rolls eyes> Bet those "families" have... alternative income streams... and they aren't just subsisting on the basic social security benefits system... So what would he rather? People died of starvation on the street if they didn't, couldn't find work? No and nor would I but looking at a close neighbour that hasn't worked ( and he happily admits such ) for 20 years They have 3 generations of adults living in a 5 bedroomed house ( I imagine that the lounge etc cramped when they are all in ) They have a huge TV, full sky service ( although that's probably a hacked box ) 3 cars of which 2 have private plates
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 20, 2021 17:28:37 GMT
<rolls eyes> Bet those "families" have... alternative income streams... and they aren't just subsisting on the basic social security benefits system... So what would he rather? People died of starvation on the street if they didn't, couldn't find work? No and nor would I but looking at a close neighbour that hasn't worked ( and he happily admits such ) for 20 years They have 3 generations of adults living in a 5 bedroomed house ( I imagine that the lounge etc cramped when they are all in ) They have a huge TV, full sky service ( although that's probably a hacked box ) 3 cars of which 2 have private plates Let's just say they ain't funding that within the £1,650/mo household benefits cap, are they? There should be a law against it!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 20, 2021 17:32:28 GMT
Ditto. And my MP's Nadine Dorries. It could hardly be worse. On the subject of party vs person, my home used to be in the Euro constituency of Bedfordshire and Milton Keynes (this was when there were Euro seats with single MPs). During the Blair years the seat was pretty marginal. In 1994 (I think) the Conservative candidate, who was standing against an anti-European trade unionist, was Edwina Currie. That was the one and only time I've voted Tory. Edwina was an effective operator and might have got things done for us if she'd been elected. But she lost heavily. The anti-European won, went off to Brussels, and was never heard of again. That would be en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eryl_McNallyAllow me to introduce my MP, Bungalow Bill. www.herefordtimes.com/news/17968755.mp-bill-wiggin-thinner-buses-vegetarian-nonsense/
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Oct 20, 2021 21:15:37 GMT
Ditto. And my MP's Nadine Dorries. It could hardly be worse. On the subject of party vs person, my home used to be in the Euro constituency of Bedfordshire and Milton Keynes (this was when there were Euro seats with single MPs). During the Blair years the seat was pretty marginal. In 1994 (I think) the Conservative candidate, who was standing against an anti-European trade unionist, was Edwina Currie. That was the one and only time I've voted Tory. Edwina was an effective operator and might have got things done for us if she'd been elected. But she lost heavily. The anti-European won, went off to Brussels, and was never heard of again. That would be en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eryl_McNallyAllow me to introduce my MP, Bungalow Bill. www.herefordtimes.com/news/17968755.mp-bill-wiggin-thinner-buses-vegetarian-nonsense/It was indeed. To judge from the wikipedia entry she was not a complete waste of space, but you'd never have guessed it at the time. Her campaign was fought entirely on Europe and she was utterly invisible once she got in. I do find myself wondering whether her hostility to Europe was entirely sincere.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Oct 21, 2021 6:57:44 GMT
I'm so disillusioned with the entire uk politics I feel my only escape from the lunatics running the asylum is to leave it. 4 different nations all arguing with each other and no joined up thinking anywhere. Too many egos who forget why and who put them there. Rant over. Back to my toast while I can still afford it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 12:52:19 GMT
I know Welsh education has collapsed, but surely "more seats or fewer"
My local MP described business as the "enemy" when he was a Corbynite, now he is not so sure. On such wealth of leadership this nation can rise again!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 21, 2021 13:05:40 GMT
My local MP described business as the "enemy" when he was a Corbynite, now he is not so sure. On such wealth of leadership this nation can rise again!
In the immortal words of Our Beloved Leader... ...or, as he rephrased it when asked whether it was an accurate quote... "It may be that I have, from time to time, expressed scepticism about some of the views of those who profess to speak up for business."www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44618154That'll be a yes, then.
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