michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 21, 2021 13:06:28 GMT
As with many things you could argue that the 58% who didn't vote were happy with the status quo. (much as you could argue those who didn't vote for Brexit were happy to stay in) I know one person who never votes, he says it's pointless as Labour always wins in the Valleys as it's drummed into people from an early age. He's what I would consider the archetypal Labour voter - Ex Miner, and Union rep at that, retired on a poor pension ( just over £60 a week ), Smoker who wears a flat cap and enjoys a pint, yet he says he could never vote Labour. The issue for me of having a Combo lets say 300 directly elected ( FPTP ) and 300 from a list covering regions and using something similar to the D'Hondt (sic) system is that despite the fact you'd get a more balanced Parliament you are also more likely to end up with the extremes ( both left and right ) being represented, once they get into Parliament it gives oxygen to their toxic views And this is one of the worst aspects of first past the post. For most people in most seats, their votes simply do not count. They are safe seats that never change. For General Elections, I've always lived in a safe seat for one or other of the two main parties. The only time my vote has counted has been for London elections (where we have preferential voting for Mayor - although barely, because you still have to put Labour or Tory as second choice as only the top two go through - why they cant do a proper AV system I don't know (and the Tories want to change it back to FPTP anyway!) - and PR for the chamber) and the Euros (where there was a multi member PR system - now of course gone). A system that means people done feel their vote counts cannot be a good one for democracy. I'm not expecting you (or anyone) to agree with this but I'd say the system we have is almost de-facto like China. Let me explain.... I'm no great expert but my understanding is in China there is only 1 party. Your vote only matters if you join that party and get interested and busy on all the lowly district sub-committees etc where you can (internally inside the party) vote and propose new local leaders etc. Those who are typically articulate and competent are more likely to rise up the greasy pole. A bit like inside large western companies how folk get promoted etc (which explains why you don't get total maniacs in positions of power there but I digress....) Anyway, my point is where I live it doesn't matter how I vote, Blue will win. So the only way to make my vote count is to join the party (see above). Inside the party I can be one of just a few dozen people determining selecting who will become the next MP instead of 1 or 70,000 ish rubber stamping the decision. So in summary, proportional representation is MUCH fairer and more democratic but it MAY produce less competent people....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 13:20:26 GMT
micheal, you are wrong in so many ways it is frightening
adrian, Boris is an arse and I can't vote for him as he is not based where I live, my present local MP I will not vote for.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Oct 21, 2021 14:57:33 GMT
I live in Scotland, my constituency is a two horse race between SNP and Conservatives. I vote SNP everytime despite my political views aligning more closely with the LibDems/centre-left Labour.
There are so many seats up and down the UK where you need to vote tactically or have your vote wasted.
Electoral reform is many decades overdue; the left wing of the Labour party need to get their heads out the sand and back PR.
Better to have some power in a coalition than to gamble on absolute power and lose time and time again.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 21, 2021 15:38:39 GMT
micheal, you are wrong in so many ways it is frightening
adrian, Boris is an arse and I can't vote for him as he is not based where I live, my present local MP I will not vote for.
Surely you can manage to spell my name correctly even if you don't seem to manage any counter-arguments ? Companies and their structures are meritocracies typically (or at least try to be) - they're certainly not democracies. China in my understanding could also be called a meritocracy. That would explain why they're doing so much better than we are.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Oct 21, 2021 15:50:19 GMT
I live in Scotland, my constituency is a two horse race between SNP and Conservatives. I vote SNP everytime despite my political views aligning more closely with the LibDems/centre-left Labour. There are so many seats up and down the UK where you need to vote tactically or have your vote wasted. Electoral reform is many decades overdue; the left wing of the Labour party need to get their heads out the sand and back PR. Better to have some power in a coalition than to gamble on absolute power and lose time and time again. The irony being that in Scottish Parliament elections, a system designed by the last Labour government as a forerunner for UK wide electoral reform, there is a proportional top up meaning that you can actually vote for who you want. They should have gone all the way and reformed the UK system when they had the chance (and which was in their manifesto).
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Oct 21, 2021 16:05:37 GMT
The irony being that in Scottish Parliament elections, a system designed by the last Labour government as a forerunner for UK wide electoral reform, there is a proportional top up meaning that you can actually vote for who you want. They should have gone all the way and reformed the UK system when they had the chance (and which was in their manifesto). Indeed, I should have specified that my default SNP-voting behaviour applied only to UK elections and not to Scottish parliamentary elections for that very reason! 😄
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 16:05:54 GMT
micheal, you are wrong in so many ways it is frightening
adrian, Boris is an arse and I can't vote for him as he is not based where I live, my present local MP I will not vote for.
Surely you can manage to spell my name correctly even if you don't seem to manage any counter-arguments ? Companies and their structures are meritocracies typically (or at least try to be) - they're certainly not democracies. China in my understanding could also be called a meritocracy. That would explain why they're doing so much better than we are. sorry, I thought michaelc that the c was for a surname, my mistake
They, we.... tell that to the Uyghurs
counter arguements, I tried that last time and you felt I was being nasty.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 21, 2021 16:18:16 GMT
Surely you can manage to spell my name correctly even if you don't seem to manage any counter-arguments ? Companies and their structures are meritocracies typically (or at least try to be) - they're certainly not democracies. China in my understanding could also be called a meritocracy. That would explain why they're doing so much better than we are. sorry, I thought michaelc that the c was for a surname, my mistake
They, we.... tell that to the Uyghurs
counter arguements, I tried that last time and you felt I was being nasty.
As a long term sufferer of the problem I suspect it wasnt the missing c it was the ea rather than ae. 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 21, 2021 16:23:54 GMT
sorry, I thought michaelc that the c was for a surname, my mistake As a long term sufferer of the problem I suspect it wasnt the missing c it was the ea rather than ae. You think you've got problems with that one...? <signed> A Drain.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Oct 21, 2021 16:28:57 GMT
And this is one of the worst aspects of first past the post. For most people in most seats, their votes simply do not count. They are safe seats that never change. For General Elections, I've always lived in a safe seat for one or other of the two main parties. The only time my vote has counted has been for London elections (where we have preferential voting for Mayor - although barely, because you still have to put Labour or Tory as second choice as only the top two go through - why they cant do a proper AV system I don't know (and the Tories want to change it back to FPTP anyway!) - and PR for the chamber) and the Euros (where there was a multi member PR system - now of course gone). A system that means people done feel their vote counts cannot be a good one for democracy. I'm not expecting you (or anyone) to agree with this but I'd say the system we have is almost de-facto like China. Let me explain.... I'm no great expert but my understanding is in China there is only 1 party. Your vote only matters if you join that party and get interested and busy on all the lowly district sub-committees etc where you can (internally inside the party) vote and propose new local leaders etc. Those who are typically articulate and competent are more likely to rise up the greasy pole. A bit like inside large western companies how folk get promoted etc (which explains why you don't get total maniacs in positions of power there but I digress....) Anyway, my point is where I live it doesn't matter how I vote, Blue will win. So the only way to make my vote count is to join the party (see above). Inside the party I can be one of just a few dozen people determining selecting who will become the next MP instead of 1 or 70,000 ish rubber stamping the decision. So in summary, proportional representation is MUCH fairer and more democratic but it MAY produce less competent people.... Actually I agree except for the last bit - I am not sure I see how it would produce less competent people. And we have a system now where a few hundred thousand Tory party members basically chose the current prime minister. My plan (not yet fully enacted, and I fear one would get caught out) is to join all the political parties so I can influence them in a better direction, and have more of a say than I do via the safe seat I live in. A bit like several of your Chinese systems concurrently.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 16:30:37 GMT
Surely you can manage to spell my name correctly even if you don't seem to manage any counter-arguments ? Companies and their structures are meritocracies typically (or at least try to be) - they're certainly not democracies. China in my understanding could also be called a meritocracy. That would explain why they're doing so much better than we are. sorry, I thought michaelc that the c was for a surname, my mistake They, we.... tell that to the Uyghurs counter arguements, I tried that last time and you felt I was being nasty.
It seems you are talking past each other at this point. It is perfectly possible for a state to both meritocratic and brutal. In fact, I would argue this combination is what makes China so terrifying. They are an oppressive state, and they are good at it. Have a look at the backgrounds of the CCP Politburo - almost entirely engineers, economists etc with strong technical and academic backgrounds. Is it any wonder they've managed to go from an agricultural society to one which is producing its own stealth fighters, carriers and hypersonic nukes, all within a single generation? Look at the total clowns in charge of our own country, in comparison... its embarrassing. And we are paying the price in terms of long-term power.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 21, 2021 16:38:21 GMT
sorry, I thought michaelc that the c was for a surname, my mistake They, we.... tell that to the Uyghurs counter arguements, I tried that last time and you felt I was being nasty.
It seems you are talking past each other at this point. It is perfectly possible for a state to both meritocratic and brutal. In fact, I would argue this combination is what makes China so terrifying. They are an oppressive state, and they are good at it. Have a look at the backgrounds of the CCP Politburo - almost entirely Engineers with strong academic backgrounds. Is it any wonder they've managed to go from an agricultural society to one which is producing its own stealth fighters, carriers and hypersonic nukes, all within a single generation? Look at the total clowns in charge of our own country, in comparison... its embarrassing. And we are paying the price in terms of long-term power. Oddly, I agree with quite a bit of that. I don't agree with the "terrifying" bit though. Except and unless you are politically active and motivated to change the system of governence. For 99.9999% of people, they are free to do what they want. Disclaimer: I'm not Chinese, have no relatives who are Chinese, have lived in Britain all my life (until very recently) and don't even look Chinese. (Do I need a new portrait for this site?)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 16:44:31 GMT
Oddly, I agree with quite a bit of that. I don't agree with the "terrifying" bit though. Except and unless you are politically active and motivated to change the system of governence. For 99.9999% of people, they are free to do what they want. Disclaimer: I'm not Chinese, have no relatives who are Chinese, have lived in Britain all my life (until very recently) and don't even look Chinese. (Do I need a new portrait for this site?) I remember the Chinese head honcho/Premier or whatever its called (Jiang Zemin I think it was?) coming to HK in late 90s/early 2000s. And in between politics and photo ops, he took the time to mark and study HK University students mathematics and engineering papers, lamenting the falling standards of the HK education system You may not like the Chinese govts priorities and politics. But they are brutally competent, beyond any question. Far more competent than our own government, unfortunately.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Oct 21, 2021 16:52:12 GMT
I live in Scotland, my constituency is a two horse race between SNP and Conservatives. I vote SNP everytime despite my political views aligning more closely with the LibDems/centre-left Labour. There are so many seats up and down the UK where you need to vote tactically or have your vote wasted. Electoral reform is many decades overdue; the left wing of the Labour party need to get their heads out the sand and back PR. Better to have some power in a coalition than to gamble on absolute power and lose time and time again. The bigger issue to me is the 200+ seats that never change either way
in 50 years only Harold Wilson and Tony Blair have won elections for Labour. 17.5 years out of 50
and yet many would have you believe they are the popular party of the people
For Labour to get into power I believe that would have to take a stack of seats in Scotland, I seriously can't see that happening any time soon, also to me Blair was very centrist certainly not as left wing as Foot, Kinnock, Wilson etc.
IMHO we need a government of consensus for issues like climate change to be addressed but they are too happy name calling etc, In All honesty can you see any of the Conservative cabinet wanting towork with Raynor after she called them "  "
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 21, 2021 17:30:22 GMT
I live in Scotland, my constituency is a two horse race between SNP and Conservatives. I vote SNP everytime despite my political views aligning more closely with the LibDems/centre-left Labour. There are so many seats up and down the UK where you need to vote tactically or have your vote wasted. Electoral reform is many decades overdue; the left wing of the Labour party need to get their heads out the sand and back PR. Better to have some power in a coalition than to gamble on absolute power and lose time and time again. The bigger issue to me is the 200+ seats that never change either way
in 50 years only Harold Wilson and Tony Blair have won elections for Labour. 17.5 years out of 50
and yet many would have you believe they are the popular party of the people
For Labour to get into power I believe that would have to take a stack of seats in Scotland, I seriously can't see that happening any time soon, also to me Blair was very centrist certainly not as left wing as Foot, Kinnock, Wilson etc.
IMHO we need a government of consensus for issues like climate change to be addressed but they are too happy name calling etc, In All honesty can you see any of the Conservative cabinet wanting towork with Raynor after she called them " " Teflon Tony (for all of his faults) made Labout electable for about 10 years. When Uncle Gordon took over he took the party further left and made them less popular. When Ed Milliband took over they moved further left and became even more unpopular. When JC took over they moved so far left I'm suprised they didn't fall off the edge of the world. I'm not a fan of Starmer, but you have to accept that he has a lot of baggage to carry in his trek to No 10.
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"