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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 25, 2021 19:43:24 GMT
Umm. Gobsmacked. So after what I guess is hundreds of years of females having to live with what most would consider a disproportinate lack of role models (unless you think the stick insect type parading on the catwalk is a substitute) in what were essentially patriarchal societies, it turns our that the biggest problem for males is the loss of Dr Who as a "role model". Perhaps this particular numbskull MP could do with stepping into the Tardis and seeing what society used to be like say, I don't know, pre suffragette ? Female Doctor Who robs boys of role models, claims Tory MP |
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james100
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Post by james100 on Nov 25, 2021 21:24:15 GMT
Umm. Gobsmacked. So after what I guess is hundreds of years of females having to live with what most would consider a disproportinate lack of role models (unless you think the stick insect type parading on the catwalk is a substitute) in what were essentially patriarchal societies, it turns our that the biggest problem for males is the loss of Dr Who as a "role model". Perhaps this particular numbskull MP could do with stepping into the Tardis and seeing what society used to be like say, I don't know, pre suffragette ? Female Doctor Who robs boys of role models, claims Tory MPAs a lifelong Doctor Who fan I can confidently say she is my second least favourite Doctor (Sylvester McCoy clings to his title). I also think that one of the biggest problems for both females and males is the active perpetuation of regressive sexist stereotyping / personality typing (aka gender) through the promotion of traditional "role models"... just catching up on this week's news and horrified to see JK Rowling being harassed and threatened yet again for expressing her belief in the immutable nature of biological sex and her opinions in her own words - strong language warning here. There seems no end to the fury a female with intelligence, self-worth and boundaries will incite in insecure men who consider these qualities a poor fit with their notion of a woman's place in society. I know loads of females who will no longer vote Labour or Lib Dem because of their proudly announced policies that they'll allow males to self-identify as females in law (GRA reform) and the widespread implications of that...very few people are inclined to speak publicly about it for fear of being bullied the way JK Rowling was but it's a massive voting issue (and a crowd puller for the Tories).
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 25, 2021 22:25:44 GMT
Interesting. I was brought up (in a fairly liberal/left-wing family) to consider the sexes as equal in most things and that made sense to me and therefore was a general principle I followed for many decades.
Now, I think its rubbish. Women and men are different. Their huge differences are to be acknowledged if we don't all descend into mental illness. One can't become the other either.
As for Dr Who, I've no issue about the gender.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 26, 2021 8:38:09 GMT
Umm. Gobsmacked. So after what I guess is hundreds of years of females having to live with what most would consider a disproportinate lack of role models (unless you think the stick insect type parading on the catwalk is a substitute) in what were essentially patriarchal societies, it turns our that the biggest problem for males is the loss of Dr Who as a "role model". Perhaps this particular numbskull MP could do with stepping into the Tardis and seeing what society used to be like say, I don't know, pre suffragette ? Female Doctor Who robs boys of role models, claims Tory MPUtterly, utterly pathetic. I can't help but note that Nick Fletcher MP is one of the 2019 intake from a "red wall" seat (Don Valley), describes himself as a "practicing Christian", and is a member of the "Common Sense Group" on the "socially conservative" wing of the party. He is also the author of the "Immigration and the Working Class" section of the group's book... www.thecommonsensegroup.com/ - p96 on. No surprises... A safe bet that, if he'd come into politics a few years earlier, he'd have been wearing a purple and yellow rosette, I suspect. He'd have fitted in perfectly. Or I can see him stateside...
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 26, 2021 9:20:42 GMT
Interesting. I was brought up (in a fairly liberal/left-wing family) to consider the sexes as equal in most things and that made sense to me and therefore was a general principle I followed for many decades. Now, I think its rubbish. Women and men are different. Their huge differences are to be acknowledged if we don't all descend into mental illness. One can't become the other either. As for Dr Who, I've no issue about the gender. Treating people as equals if it is to mean anything mean giving everyone equal opportunities in life, to find and pursue the things they like and are good at, and treating them with equal respect regardless of gender etc. etc. Leaving the most obvious physical aspects aside, whatever differences that there are between the sexes at the generalised population level are self evidently much much smaller than the traits and capabilities that the different gender populations share. I'd also confidently state that the generalised gender differences are much smaller than the variation of traits and capabilities within either gender population [OK, that terminology may be a tad too binary for some......]. In this context, being "equal" does not mean being the same, anymore than all 'men' being equal means all men are the same.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 26, 2021 9:36:23 GMT
Very well put, Brackers.
I grew up in a house with one parent working long hours in a senior IT position, and the other working from home, doing all the week day cooking etc... If dinner wasn't on the table when Mum got back from the office at 7...
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 26, 2021 11:47:54 GMT
Umm. Gobsmacked. So after what I guess is hundreds of years of females having to live with what most would consider a disproportinate lack of role models (unless you think the stick insect type parading on the catwalk is a substitute) in what were essentially patriarchal societies, it turns our that the biggest problem for males is the loss of Dr Who as a "role model". Perhaps this particular numbskull MP could do with stepping into the Tardis and seeing what society used to be like say, I don't know, pre suffragette ? Female Doctor Who robs boys of role models, claims Tory MPAs a lifelong Doctor Who fan I can confidently say she is my second least favourite Doctor (Sylvester McCoy clings to his title). I also think that one of the biggest problems for both females and males is the active perpetuation of regressive sexist stereotyping / personality typing (aka gender) through the promotion of traditional "role models"... just catching up on this week's news and horrified to see JK Rowling being harassed and threatened yet again for expressing her belief in the immutable nature of biological sex and her opinions in her own words - strong language warning here. There seems no end to the fury a female with intelligence, self-worth and boundaries will incite in insecure men who consider these qualities a poor fit with their notion of a woman's place in society. I know loads of females who will no longer vote Labour or Lib Dem because of their proudly announced policies that they'll allow males to self-identify as females in law (GRA reform) and the widespread implications of that... very few people are inclined to speak publicly about it for fear of being bullied the way JK Rowling was but it's a massive voting issue (and a crowd puller for the Tories). Another recent case was the abhorrent hounding of Professor Stock (now formerly) of Sussex University. As someone who has been through the mill of for many years endeavouring to live her life to fit with the expected heterosexual norms, only later to come out as homosexual, it is perhaps particularly shocking that she should be treated as she has been.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 26, 2021 13:33:52 GMT
Interesting. I was brought up (in a fairly liberal/left-wing family) to consider the sexes as equal in most things and that made sense to me and therefore was a general principle I followed for many decades. Now, I think its rubbish. Women and men are different. Their huge differences are to be acknowledged if we don't all descend into mental illness. One can't become the other either. As for Dr Who, I've no issue about the gender. Treating people as equals if it is to mean anything mean giving everyone equal opportunities in life, to find and pursue the things they like and are good at, and treating them with equal respect regardless of gender etc. etc. Leaving the most obvious physical aspects aside, whatever differences that there are between the sexes at the generalised population level are self evidently much much smaller than the traits and capabilities that the different gender populations share. I'd also confidently state that the generalised gender differences are much smaller than the variation of traits and capabilities within either gender population [OK, that terminology may be a tad too binary for some......]. In this context, being "equal" does not mean being the same, anymore than all 'men' being equal means all men are the same. What about mothers. Do you think they play a virtually identical role to fathers once the baby is born? Obviously the Father isn't going to breast feed but apart from that ?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 26, 2021 13:54:40 GMT
Treating people as equals if it is to mean anything mean giving everyone equal opportunities in life, to find and pursue the things they like and are good at, and treating them with equal respect regardless of gender etc. etc. Leaving the most obvious physical aspects aside, whatever differences that there are between the sexes at the generalised population level are self evidently much much smaller than the traits and capabilities that the different gender populations share. I'd also confidently state that the generalised gender differences are much smaller than the variation of traits and capabilities within either gender population [OK, that terminology may be a tad too binary for some......]. In this context, being "equal" does not mean being the same, anymore than all 'men' being equal means all men are the same. What about mothers. Do you think they play a virtually identical role to fathers once the baby is born? Obviously the Father isn't going to breast feed but apart from that ? It rather depends on the family, some men stay home to look after the children and the wife goes to work. Some have nannies and neither parent is very hands on. Most fathers these days at least change nappies and share the getting up in the night duties. My parents both worked, my mother worked nights and my father worked days, so they pretty much shared parenting even back in the day.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2021 14:38:37 GMT
equal does not mean identical
I grew up in a family where the company MD was my mother and it shocked me on reaching adulthood to find that women were not normally in the position of leadership
this MP is just a nut and needs to be taken for a little walk and a chat
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 26, 2021 14:48:58 GMT
Personally lets give them total equality
Oympic Games do away with Womens events Tennis Grandslams either women play 5 sets or they continue to play 3 of course they could have a single event open to both sexes
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2021 15:04:18 GMT
equal does not mean identical
come on guys you know this stuff.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Nov 26, 2021 15:25:52 GMT
As a lifelong Doctor Who fan I can confidently say she is my second least favourite Doctor (Sylvester McCoy clings to his title). I also think that one of the biggest problems for both females and males is the active perpetuation of regressive sexist stereotyping / personality typing (aka gender) through the promotion of traditional "role models"... just catching up on this week's news and horrified to see JK Rowling being harassed and threatened yet again for expressing her belief in the immutable nature of biological sex and her opinions in her own words - strong language warning here. There seems no end to the fury a female with intelligence, self-worth and boundaries will incite in insecure men who consider these qualities a poor fit with their notion of a woman's place in society. I know loads of females who will no longer vote Labour or Lib Dem because of their proudly announced policies that they'll allow males to self-identify as females in law (GRA reform) and the widespread implications of that... very few people are inclined to speak publicly about it for fear of being bullied the way JK Rowling was but it's a massive voting issue (and a crowd puller for the Tories). Another recent case was the abhorrent hounding of Professor Stock (now formerly) of Sussex University. As someone who has been through the mill of for many years endeavouring to live her life to fit with the expected heterosexual norms, only later to come out as homosexual, it is perhaps particularly shocking that she should be treated as she has been. Not shocking at all, gender ideology is fundamental homophobic, and particularly lesbophobic. When one claims that sexist stereotyping i.e. gender reigns supreme over biological sex and indeed supplants it, there is a bit of an issue when it comes to dealing with "same sex attracted" people. That's why lesbians have been vilified as bigots for excluding males who now declare themselves to be women from the lesbian dating pool ("cotton ceiling" movement). Deeply unpleasant. In a similar vein to Dr Stock's issue, this is an interesting quick read on incidents involving Universities of Essex/Reading/Open: www.cloisters.com/reindorf-review-on-no-platforming/
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2021 16:00:12 GMT
when I was a kid boys did better than girls at Maths
then boys decided maths wasn't cool
now women can be scientists and anything
boys complain
the reality is people make choices and many of them are poor. Role models is just a BS excuse. My wife is an Engineer, not because she is a woman or because she is a man but because she wanted to be and worked to be.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 26, 2021 20:07:57 GMT
Hard to prove but I think its true that in general boys prefer stereotypical boy's toys and girls prefer dolls etc. I don't know why that is considered a bad thing to say these days. No doubt I'll be told that is due to being conditioned that way. Having a boy and a girl (and I accept anecdotal evidence proves nothing) I can see how the boy is fascinated with trains, planes, boats, helicopters and the girl is not at all interested in such things.
Most nursery schools have women working there - I think that is a fact although haven't checked. Certainly I would trust my 4 year olds more with a "stranger" female than a male. Not least due to the fact women are far, far less likely to harm them than men (and why is that?)
Of course in the two random samples I've just brought up there are exceptions. As was mentioned, brilliant engineers etc. In general I think we have a venn diagram with a large overlap but definite traits one way or the other.
More fundamentally and almost never discussed, is how we as a race procreate. There really is some truth to the flowers and bees analogy. We definitely have a concept of "prettiness" or dare I say handsomeness however unfair (and thus inconvenient to some) that might be.
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