benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 27, 2021 12:18:58 GMT
Do you think that might be because the men they work with refuse to take them seriously and treat them as equals? I did a computer science degree in the late 80s, early 90s. My course was over half female. I don't think I've ever worked in any IT environment which even vaguely approached that. Women have been disproportionate among the highly competent, "you're far too good for this job" people I've worked with, while almost every utterly useless seat-warming bag-of-wind I've worked with has been male... Women have been disproportionate among the highly competent, "you're far too good for this job" people I've worked with, while almost every utterly useless seat-warming bag-of-wind I've worked with has been male...
AMEN
Well, it certainly makes sense for those who believe 98% of the population are not “smart”. We all have to deal with “useless” people daily regardless of gender.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Nov 27, 2021 12:27:49 GMT
<snip> Emma Raducanu is a great role model IMHO. Fluent in languages, athletic and being “good at maths”. Absolutely, but I doubt she'd be quite so appreciated across society if she didn't look like that. This thread has reminded me of (ex Australian Prime Minister) Julia Gillard's famous "misogyny speech" which I personally consider to be one of the greatest political speeches of our time...not just on sexism and misogyny but on double standards, hypocrisy, selective politicizing of issues and how politicians should be held accountable for their BS. The context was the then Speaker of the House (Labour, Peter Slipper) had been caught sending loads of sexist tests to a staffer. The Leader of the Opposition (Conservatives, Tony Abbott) had been trying to lecture the Prime Minister (Labour, Julia Gillard) on how bad sexism and misogyny was. The speech was Gillard's response to that and it took her less than 5 minutes to rip him a massive new one although full annihilation extends to 15 minutes
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 27, 2021 12:38:04 GMT
However, “smart” women decide to leave the field after studying engineering. Do you think that might be because the men they work with refuse to take them seriously and treat them as equals? I did a computer science degree in the late 80s, early 90s. My course was over half female. I don't think I've ever worked in any IT environment which even vaguely approached that. Women have been disproportionate among the highly competent, "you're far too good for this job" people I've worked with, while almost every utterly useless seat-warming bag-of-wind I've worked with has been male... I agree It's too male dominated. I do remember giving 3 students a spec for a program for each of them to write. After 2 weeks the 2 guys were finished, and ready to go live the girls hadn't even reached the compiled free of syntax errors stage. I tried to help her but her attitude was I had given her a much harder job then they boys as anti female discrimination. At that stage I took the specs to a colleague and had them peer reviewed and he said her task was the same. The IT manager got involved and she was put on a development plan ( agreed with the university ) another 2 weeks go by and it's still not ready and she won't show me her code, so I have to escalate. She was called into a meeting with myself and the IT manager, and she point blank refuses to let him see the code. The Admin manager was called in and she was asked about her external Phone usage and she said "I make odd calls to book squash courts" ( at this time to get an external line you had to dial 9 and ask for a line and we were charged for non work calls ) The admin manager then said "what about all these" and she was making international calls most days. We had to let her go, we were "allocated" another female student and she was brilliant the really funny thing was 8-10 years later she applied for a job and quoted me as a reference ! I have to say the worst trainee I ever was involved with was male, He was given a program to write and a copy of the input data and the output data for the first test run. I was gobsmacked when the program ran really quickly on the first run and the results were perfect, So I reset and ran the second set of data through and got exactly the same results. So I reset again and carefully checked the input files were the ones for the second run and ran it again with exactly the same results. So I looked at the code, the program had been written to generate the expected results. He was moved away from the mainframe team to a team developing early PC programs,and appeared to be doing well until he told my manager a piece of work was complete and he could demonstrate to the users (who included the Council treasurer ) A demo was setup the PC duly transported and the system loaded. And the initial menus didn't even work !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 12:39:28 GMT
Women have been disproportionate among the highly competent, "you're far too good for this job" people I've worked with, while almost every utterly useless seat-warming bag-of-wind I've worked with has been male...
AMEN
Well, it certainly makes sense for those who believe 98% of the population are not “smart”. We all have to deal with “useless” people daily regardless of gender. Could be, having worked as an Engineer I have had to spend more than enough time having quiet chats with juniors, people of my own level and senior people (all male) that ignoring staff members who were "unfortunatly" women was a complete waste of the resources of a number of companies.
Hatred of women and inability to work with women is alive and well in the UK
women (smart or not) move out of industries where they are disrespected is hardly surprising
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 27, 2021 12:44:33 GMT
Outside of sport, of course... A job where physical brute force is required is a job where the correct equipment has not been provided. Refuse collectors? Paramedics? Firefighters rescuing people from a burning building Actually made me laugh I can remember many years ago my girlfriend at the tiny was a skinny little slip of a thing, and one night She was getting pushed around by a bouncer in a club, She asked him nicely to Stop he didn't, she asked him again, He went to push her and ended up flat on his back he got up and said something along the lines of "i must've slipped" and went to push her again this time she threw him over her shoulder. What he didn't know was she was a judo black belt. I'd doubt there are any/many roles which have not been enhanced in some way - or at the very least not weakened - by opening up to the 'non-traditional' sex for that job (which in most, but not all, means opening up to females. Roles which traditionally have been viewed as benefitting from classic male virtues of 'brute strength' have typically been significantly improved by the involvement of women. Just to take your case of club/door bouncer: male punters are less likely to turn straight to aggression when confronted by a female bouncer, who in turn is more likely to be able to resolve a situation peacefully. There are of course plenty of female paramedics, but only a small percentage of firefighters. That might reflect that there is indeed a greater barrier in terms of physical demand, and if that is so then so be it. I suspect though at only <5% 5-6% there are probably other forms of 'barriers' getting in the way. On a similar vein: my wife was a police officer for 30 years and comes in at about all of 5' 2". Nonetheless she has been known to cause considerable physical damage to 6 foot plus (male) instructors in more than one of her regular 'refresher' training sessions.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 27, 2021 12:57:58 GMT
On a similar vein: my wife was a police officer for 30 years and comes in at about all of 5' 2". To be fair so do you .
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 27, 2021 13:12:54 GMT
There has been a huge amount of research in the area of "gendered brains", toy preferences etc and I think you would find the work of Prof Gina Rippon fascinating. A couple of articles on her work here (Guardian) and here (Telegraph). It's a myth. As always, people want a binary yes /no answer to these questions. And scientists often aren't as neutral as they might be, for all sorts of reasons.It is blindingly obvious that there are biological differences between males and females, including in their brains, and also that there are huge social and developmental influences we exert differentially on males and females. Both are important, but people choose to emphasise one or the other depending on their beliefs, purpose, biases, personal needs etc. And this IMO is being used by some of them. I had a science then maths led education and I recall being taught many times the rigour, the discipline, the methodological approach etc etc. What is omitted in the teaching is that when scientists get to the pinnacle of their field, they begin to form their own views and they are people like everyone else with their own bias, politics, etc. But perhaps I should be writing this in the Covid thread....
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 27, 2021 13:15:15 GMT
On a similar vein: my wife was a police officer for 30 years and comes in at about all of 5' 2". To be fair so do you . Cheeky. I'm not sure however that you are able to accurately differentiate between varying heights if they are less than about 6'.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 27, 2021 14:17:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 14:36:39 GMT
What do men really want at work?
everyone wants different things, why is this even a question
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 27, 2021 14:57:43 GMT
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Nov 27, 2021 14:58:57 GMT
What do men really want at work?
everyone wants different things, why is this even a question
ALL THE CAKE
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 15:48:05 GMT
My wife trained at great expense by the Civil Service worked for around 6 years in various branches of the country sorting out projects. All went well until she was the first female Engineer in Northern Ireland. The grumpy old men there did not know what to do with her, she could not be pigeon holed by religion, she did not belong to a lodge or a religous grouping. They did not know what to do with her when she told them they were wrong. In the end she had an hour long meeting with the head of her ministry in London where she spelt out the problems that part of the Civil Service had with "uppity" women. Thankfully that smart woman moved into the private sector where she was very successful.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 27, 2021 16:00:13 GMT
To be fair so do you . Cheeky. I'm not sure however that you are able to accurately differentiate between varying heights if they are less than about 6'. I refer you to the thread on imperial measures. If you can please give height also in metres it would be much appreciated 😁
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 27, 2021 16:20:13 GMT
My wife trained at great expense by the Civil Service worked for around 6 My grandmother took the Civil Service entrance exams in the first year that women were allowed to take them. Out of the cohort of 650 odd she came second in maths, fourth in logic, and six in philosophy. I have a copy of a Daily Mail article of the time reporting this. The comment that stood out was " And who would have thought that women could count?". Of course, when she married my grandfather she had to resign. Because married women weren't allowed to work for the Civil Service. I'm glad to say that society has moved on a lot further than the Daily Mail.
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