registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 3, 2022 12:59:56 GMT
It would be electoral suicide, equally... it all has to be paid for somehow.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Feb 3, 2022 13:52:58 GMT
It would be electoral suicide, equally... it all has to be paid for somehow. Why ? The total take will be the same if council 1 has 20000 properties all in band A and they are revalues so 5000 band A, 10000 band B and 5000 band C Band B would charge the same as band A now, band A would be 1/6 less, band C 1/6 more. A rebanding should be revenue neutral. On the other hand a redistribution of funding to make council tax fairer would be unpopular in London, but popular in the red wall. Average Council tax in Westminster is £888.75 Average council tax in Newham is £1104 Band A Council tax in Hartlepool is £1398 Band A Council tax in Blaenau Gwent is £1398 The Government spends an average of about £500 per person on public transport, this ranges from nearly £1000 in London to less than 300 in the east midlands and Yorkshire
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 3, 2022 16:11:56 GMT
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daveb
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Post by daveb on Feb 3, 2022 17:44:49 GMT
The problem relates to the fact that the losers will make the hell of a row and the winners will say nowt. I think it's in the "too difficult" box
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 4, 2022 9:09:37 GMT
...A rebanding should be revenue neutral. On the other hand a redistribution of funding to make council tax fairer would be unpopular in London, but popular in the red wall. Average Council tax in Westminster is £888.75 Average council tax in Newham is £1104 Band A Council tax in Hartlepool is £1398 Band A Council tax in Blaenau Gwent is £1398... A few thoughts: 1. We really are overdue a rebanding. 2. There are too few bands. There should be more at both the top and the bottom, so that the system is more progressive regardless of the level of local house prices. 2. As your figures suggest, some councils are grossly inadequately funded. The funding formula has always been a political football, and the Tories have always favoured the shire counties. I see nothing little to suggest this has changed. * 3. I suspect (though I'm not sure) that councils lose out when residents are on benefits (or are students) and either exempt from council tax or paying a lower rate. AFAIK the gap is not made good by central govt. If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone here will know. Good article on local government finance here: www.newlocal.org.uk/articles/council-finance-explained/* [Edit] There is actually a marginal improvement in the funding formula for 2022/23. "In contrast to the last decade, councils serving more deprived parts of England will see bigger increases in funding than those serving more affluent areas next year. The most deprived tenth of councils are projected to see their core spending power rise by 7.7% (4.9% in real-terms), compared to 6.6% (3.8% in real-terms) for the least deprived tenth of councils." ifs.org.uk/publications/15889Edit 2: Also of interest: ifs.org.uk/publications/15702
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 4, 2022 9:48:42 GMT
...A rebanding should be revenue neutral. On the other hand a redistribution of funding to make council tax fairer would be unpopular in London, but popular in the red wall. Average Council tax in Westminster is £888.75 Average council tax in Newham is £1104 Band A Council tax in Hartlepool is £1398 Band A Council tax in Blaenau Gwent is £1398... A few thoughts: 1. We really are overdue a rebanding. 2. There are too few bands. There should be more at both the top and the bottom, so that the system is more progressive regardless of the level of local house prices. Agreed. We bought our last house, in the SE, in 1998. Within a month or two, this house, in the far west, was sold for about 10% more. When we moved in 2013, the SE house sold for 50% more than we paid for this one... and this one had gained a huge two-storey extension in that time. There's VERY little evidence of that here in this Shire, with entrenched Tory MPs and only a very recent change from long-term Tory council control.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Feb 4, 2022 10:12:10 GMT
A few thoughts: s. 2. As your figures suggest, some councils are grossly inadequately funded. The funding formula has always been a political football, and the Tories have always favoured the shire counties. I see nothing little to suggest this has changed. * 3. I suspect (though I'm not sure) that councils lose out when residents are on benefits (or are students) and either exempt from council tax or paying a lower rate. AFAIK the gap is not made good by central govt. If I'm wrong about this, hopefully someone here will know. I lived an worked in a heavily Tory voting shire county, year in year out the shires got less funding than metropolitan areas be it Manchester or London. One big issue was Councils told to cut spending by 5% Council A manages Council B doesn't central Government gives B a rise the next year and leaves A where it was as it hit the target. The same happens within councils I remember all departments being asked for ideas on how 2% could be taken off the budget. We as I responded within a week with a list of suggestions, HR said no cuts were possible, so what happened IT had it's budget cut by 3% HR was given a 1% increase.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Feb 4, 2022 10:20:26 GMT
Funding is even more of a Rugby ball here in Wales.
As an example there are plans for integrated transport
The Welsh Government are paying the entire costs of the part of the plan in Cardiff and surrounding areas, Blaenau Gwent on the other hand has been loaned £70Million to undertake it's part of the project, This Loan equates to £3,000 per property in Blaenau Gwent so £300 in council tax for 10 years to repay.
The Average council tax in Cardiff is £17 more than band A in BG, but they get much better services.
But I have a plan to reduce my bill, I am going to invoice the council for the work they require me to do in sorting recycling.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 4, 2022 10:34:37 GMT
Did I use the wrong term in rebanding? If so what I should have said was "increase". [...] That would entail a major change in how councils are funded. There's obviously no scope to increase council tax in places like Hartlepool and Blaenau Gwent, to take keitha 's examples, but plenty of scope in the London and the South-East. You could increase the overall tax take, at the same time as adding more bands, in a way that did not increase (and might reduce) the burden at the bottom. But this would see a large increase in council tax revenue where wealth is concentrated. You'd then need to adjust the funding formula to take this into account, reducing the funding for authorities in the more affluent areas, while increasing it in the poorest. Which would be a good thing.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Feb 4, 2022 11:06:15 GMT
Did I use the wrong term in rebanding? If so what I should have said was "increase". [...] That would entail a major change in how councils are funded. There's obviously no scope to increase council tax in places like Hartlepool and Blaenau Gwent, to take keitha 's examples, but plenty of scope in the London and the South-East. You could increase the overall tax take, at the same time as adding more bands, in a way that did not increase (and might reduce) the burden at the bottom. But this would see a large increase in council tax revenue where wealth is concentrated. You'd then need to adjust the funding formula to take this into account, reducing the funding for authorities in the more affluent areas, while increasing it in the poorest. Which would be a good thing. Parts of London anyway I would imagine places like tower hamlets and Newham are pretty deprived, but even within other Boroughs there well may be a large number of financially deprived pensioners. For me one of the biggest issues is the reduction for single occupancy at 25% despite in the case of pensioners 1/2 the income, and heating a house for one is not significantly cheaper than for 2. nor does council tax take into account occupancy, so I pay just under £1000 a year the house up the road with 3 generations of adults pays £1500 so my cost is £1000 they pay £250 each. to be honest I was always a poll tax fan ie each person paid.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 4, 2022 11:41:00 GMT
That would entail a major change in how councils are funded. There's obviously no scope to increase council tax in places like Hartlepool and Blaenau Gwent, to take keitha 's examples, but plenty of scope in the London and the South-East. You could increase the overall tax take, at the same time as adding more bands, in a way that did not increase (and might reduce) the burden at the bottom. But this would see a large increase in council tax revenue where wealth is concentrated. You'd then need to adjust the funding formula to take this into account, reducing the funding for authorities in the more affluent areas, while increasing it in the poorest. Which would be a good thing. Parts of London anyway I would imagine places like tower hamlets and Newham are pretty deprived, but even within other Boroughs there well may be a large number of financially deprived pensioners. For me one of the biggest issues is the reduction for single occupancy at 25% despite in the case of pensioners 1/2 the income, and heating a house for one is not significantly cheaper than for 2. nor does council tax take into account occupancy, so I pay just under £1000 a year the house up the road with 3 generations of adults pays £1500 so my cost is £1000 they pay £250 each. to be honest I was always a poll tax fan ie each person paid. It may not surprise you but I am of the opposite view! The biggest reason for growing inequality is wealth. I'd prefer a system that was more like a wealth tax charged on property value. People with high property wealth but cash poor should either downsize (which too few pensioners do, and would be good for society as a whole) or borrow against the property. The borrowing could be state organised, ie the council could be paid by some central body which would be repaid (with interest) from the sale of your property when you eventually move or die. I'd also like to see inheritance tax reformed to be less avoidable and more comprehensive, including the abolition of the additional nil rate band for the main residence... Edit: Just as an aside, it's true that parts of Tower Hamlets and Newham are seriously deprived (as are parts of posh boroughs like Kensington and Chelsea, eg Grenfell Tower). But they have wealthy bits too - especially Tower Hamlets, which has most of Docklands).
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on Feb 4, 2022 11:45:08 GMT
Parts of London anyway I would imagine places like tower hamlets and Newham are pretty deprived, but even within other Boroughs there well may be a large number of financially deprived pensioners. For me one of the biggest issues is the reduction for single occupancy at 25% despite in the case of pensioners 1/2 the income, and heating a house for one is not significantly cheaper than for 2. nor does council tax take into account occupancy, so I pay just under £1000 a year the house up the road with 3 generations of adults pays £1500 so my cost is £1000 they pay £250 each. to be honest I was always a poll tax fan ie each person paid. It may not surprise you but I am of the opposite view! The biggest reason for growing inequality is wealth. I'd prefer a system that was more like a wealth tax charged on property value. People with high property wealth but cash poor should either downsize (which too few pensioners do, and would be good for society as a whole) or borrow against the property. The borrowing could be state organised, ie the council could be paid by some central body which would be repaid (with interest) from the sale of your property when you eventually move or die. I'd also like to see inheritance tax reformed to be less avoidable and more comprehensive, including the abolition of the additional nil rate band for the main residence... Instead of pensioners who own property why not think of single people who cannot afford to buy and yet who still have to pay £1000 in council tax for the cheapest band. They are hammered by CT.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Feb 4, 2022 11:45:21 GMT
Council tax rises are not the answer. Having competent managers who can manage departmental spend and ensure efficiency is the way forward. Continuing to tax people to cover up for incompetantance is easy but cannot continue forever. My council tax equates to an eighth if my take home. Potholes, rubbish and poor service does not represent value for money.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 4, 2022 12:12:02 GMT
Council tax rises are not the answer. Having competent managers who can manage departmental spend and ensure efficiency is the way forward. Continuing to tax people to cover up for incompetantance is easy but cannot continue forever. My council tax equates to an eighth if my take home. Potholes, rubbish and poor service does not represent value for money. Yes some councils are more efficient than others, but central govt funding has been savagely cut over the last decade or so and most councils have little room to make more cuts. I suspect you may be unaware how little of your council tax goes to pay for the things you mention. Collecting bins and fixing potholes have been squeezed because councils are obliged by law to pay for both adult and child social care, which are taking an ever-growing slice of their budget. See this article for details: www.newlocal.org.uk/articles/local-government-explained-part-2-what-do-councils-do/
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Feb 4, 2022 14:03:20 GMT
Council tax rises are not the answer. Having competent managers who can manage departmental spend and ensure efficiency is the way forward. Continuing to tax people to cover up for incompetantance is easy but cannot continue forever. My council tax equates to an eighth if my take home. Potholes, rubbish and poor service does not represent value for money. I worked In Local Government for many years and have to agree. One section manager in my department was good in a crisis, so his team lurched from crisis to crisis. We had a team member ( relatively junior ) Who was to be polite useless, myself and another member of staff ended up spending probably 15 hours a week for 18months coaching and mentoring him to try to get him up to scratch, it was only then that disciplinary action was allowed to start. We had a requirement for a new skill set, I was passed over for the promotion as I needed training, The guy who was appointed was sent on the course I said I needed when it transpired he lied in his interview. When I started I was sent on a long training course, myself and the 2 other trainees worked out the cheapest way to travel was a single to London at the start of week one, A Weekend return home from London each weekend, and a Single home on the last friday, and we all used our railcards to make it cheaper still. Our expense claims were all rejected as we hadn't purchased the more expensive standard returns. The only way round the system was to claim the standard fares not the cheaper ones we had used. Our manager did use this to highlight waste within a report he was writing
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