ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 14, 2022 7:46:47 GMT
On the nurses requests: Has nurses' pay kept up with inflation?Nurses' pay has not kept up with rising prices since 2010. They have had a real terms pay cut of more than 10%. It has also failed to keep up with average earnings, either in the private sector or the public sector, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has confirmed.Highly misleading on its own. Implying that nurses are paid less than private sector but as the rest of the Twitter thread says the average nurses pay is still 27% above the average private sector worker. He also indicates that lower paid have done better which has pushed up private sector average (also true in public/NHS). Then there are additionals to factor in like holiday, pensions etc.
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 14, 2022 8:31:00 GMT
Perhaps you misunderstood my point. If not, then I'm not sure what point you are making. Quite obviously only those that are qualified (and eligible to work here) can apply. That doesn't mean its not a 'free market'. The point being that if there are large numbers of vacancies, then things are out of kilter because those that could be eligible are not rushing to fill the vacancies. whether that is in the form of people not currently eligible (through qualification) queuing up to train to get to get into the profession b) those that have left the profession for one reason or not being attracted to rejoin. The market is free, just that all free markets are still bound by various constraints. A free market is not a 'free for all' market. Perhaps you misunderstood my point. The market for nurses in the UK is not really a fluid market as there is one very large source of demand (the NHS) and a relatively static set of those who could supply (nurses). Its not like plumbers, electricians, software engineers, hairdressers, solicitors, factory workers, etc etc where there are a large number of supply and demand actors. there are other parts of the labour market that are also quite constrained. There was a time when you couldn't get construction workers for love, but only for money (so to speak). Of course the likes of nurses/doctors/paramedics/police has an 'input feed' at one end which is controlled to a significant degree by the government (funds and quotas for training), and a hand in factors throughout that impact financial incentives to stay in/ leave the job other than just pure salary*. But nonetheless, my point about free market is that within that framework it is still a free market: people leave and do other things if the balance of reward/conditions/finanicial benefits aren't what they want, and come back e.g. out of early retirement if they are. Of course a labour free market has not been helped by Brexit: that is one natural valve that can help balance without explicit political interference has been switched off (no this is not a Brexit point making exercise, just stating a fact). I don't entirely agree with the comments about one very large source of demand. Yes there is of course substantial truth in that statement and so it is a fair point. But other outlets exist and are used. e.g. nurses leave the NHS, and then effectively come and work back for it at but via agency provided nursing staff (at higher cost to the NHS).
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easynow
Member of DD Central
Popcorn anyone?
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Post by easynow on Dec 14, 2022 9:06:28 GMT
The unfortunate reality is the UK is bankrupt and we have been living beyond our means for quite some time. The reality is the whole western world is going to have to accept a decline in living standards. People are just going to have to learn to live on fewer resources, the only thing striking is going to do is put peoples jobs in jepardy - the money isnt there. Postal strike is madness they are just striking themselves out of a job. Even the NHS if they start demanding large pay rises will ultimately do themselves out of a job, the days of the blank check NHS are probably numbered anyhow. Which pretty much sums up my thoughts. You can't keep squeezing the private sector for more and more tax to pay people who are invariably earning more than themselves, and with much better pensions and perks. Irony: A friend and her husband were complaining on faeces book at the weekend that they had to cancel a trip to London due to the rail strikes, they are both posties.
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Post by overthehill on Dec 14, 2022 10:19:57 GMT
When I was at school (admittedly some time ago) there were 3 types of average.
- mean - add all the numbers up and divide by the how many there were
- median - if you put all the numbers in a row in assending order the median is the one in the middle
- mode - the most common number in the set
There does appear to be a certain amount of picking and chosing depending on whet result you want.
A statistics degree at the Open University is 36 hours a week for 3 years. Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on Dec 14, 2022 10:42:38 GMT
T he unfortunate reality is the UK is bankrupt and we have been living beyond our means for quite some time. The reality is the whole western world is going to have to accept a decline in living standards. People are just going to have to learn to live on fewer resources, the only thing striking is going to do is put peoples jobs in jepardy - the money isnt there. Postal strike is madness they are just striking themselves out of a job. Even the NHS if they start demanding large pay rises will ultimately do themselves out of a job, the days of the blank check NHS are probably numbered anyhow. That may be true, but we are not alone. If you look at the countries with the highest debt to GDP ratio the top 10 are:
Venezuela — 350% Japan — 266% Sudan — 259% Greece — 206% Lebanon — 172% Cabo Verde — 157% Italy — 156% Libya — 155% Portugal — 134% Singapore — 131% Bahrain — 128% United States — 128%
UK doesn't make the top 20, and we are well ahead of the likes of Canada, Spain, France and Belgium.
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mrk
Posts: 807
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Post by mrk on Dec 14, 2022 11:04:50 GMT
On the nurses requests: Has nurses' pay kept up with inflation?Nurses' pay has not kept up with rising prices since 2010. They have had a real terms pay cut of more than 10%. It has also failed to keep up with average earnings, either in the private sector or the public sector, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has confirmed.Highly misleading on its own. Implying that nurses are paid less than private sector but as the rest of the Twitter thread says the average nurses pay is still 27% above the average private sector worker. He also indicates that lower paid have done better which has pushed up private sector average (also true in public/NHS). Then there are additionals to factor in like holiday, pensions etc. I don't see where it's implying they're paid less in absolute term? It's clearly showing changes as % since 2010, not absolute pay. Comparing average nurse pay to average private sector worker pay would be an apples to oranges comparison anyway. Different jobs clearly require different skill levels, pressure, shifts, etc.
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mogish
Member of DD Central
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Strikes
Dec 14, 2022 12:41:18 GMT
via mobile
ozboy likes this
Post by mogish on Dec 14, 2022 12:41:18 GMT
faeces book ...
Lol I like that. Never subscribed to FB , sometimes I feel I'm missing out as I miss invites from people I know and generally only get up to speed via friends etc.
Either way, it's a great name for it 👍😁
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,877
Likes: 11,102
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Strikes
Dec 14, 2022 13:04:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by ilmoro on Dec 14, 2022 13:04:57 GMT
Highly misleading on its own. Implying that nurses are paid less than private sector but as the rest of the Twitter thread says the average nurses pay is still 27% above the average private sector worker. He also indicates that lower paid have done better which has pushed up private sector average (also true in public/NHS). Then there are additionals to factor in like holiday, pensions etc. I don't see where it's implying they're paid less in absolute term? It's clearly showing changes as % since 2010, not absolute pay. Comparing average nurse pay to average private sector worker pay would be an apples to oranges comparison anyway. Different jobs clearly require different skill levels, pressure, shifts, etc. 'It has also failed to keep up with average earnings both in the public & private sector' clearly implying that nurses pay has fallen behind average earnings & then providing a graph showing the nurses line below. The missing words in the sentence is 'the growth in' and the assuption that people would read the axis to realise the graph was showing something different I suspect is optimistic. Of course, it's apples & pears yet it is regularly done. Anyway on the thread subject tide seems to be turning ... two rail unions settling (or in favour of), support in RSM falling, Lynch had a difficult media round yesterday, public support falling, midwives in England failed to get sufficient turnout ... though physios did vote to strike
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 13:08:53 GMT
i have no problem with nurses getting more
i have every problem with train staff getting more
Brexit and Covid was always going to hurt
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on Dec 14, 2022 14:02:36 GMT
i have no problem with nurses getting more
i have every problem with train staff getting more
Brexit and Covid was always going to hurt
Railway unions are about the most bolshie out there. Like most unions they resist change, because change results in greater efficiency, and that results in job losses.
In the 70's I went to study for a degree at a college in Coventry. One year I stayed on the outskirts of the city and every day I got the bus into town past the old British Leyland plant at Canley. Nearly every day somebody was standing at the main gate in some form of dispute:
- one day the grievence was to keep modern technology (robots) out of the plant, because it would lead to job losses.
- several years later BL were looking at a plant to build a new model at. It didn't go to Canley and the union complained bitterly that they couldn't compete on an effiency basis with the other plants because the others all had wonderful new robots.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 14, 2022 16:33:55 GMT
When I was at school (admittedly some time ago) there were 3 types of average.
- mean - add all the numbers up and divide by the how many there were
- median - if you put all the numbers in a row in assending order the median is the one in the middle
- mode - the most common number in the set
There does appear to be a certain amount of picking and chosing depending on whet result you want.
A statistics degree at the Open University is 36 hours a week for 3 years. Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Thoroughly recommended. In my day it took 4 years full time for an Honours degree (they reduced it to 3 later). I was working full time, so did mine (maths/stats) at half speed, taking 8 years. The OU is a wonderful organisation for those who didn't get the chance of university for whatever reason, and I'll always be grateful to Harold Wilson for promoting the idea.
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IFISAcava
Member of DD Central
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 14, 2022 16:54:18 GMT
On the nurses requests: Has nurses' pay kept up with inflation?Nurses' pay has not kept up with rising prices since 2010. They have had a real terms pay cut of more than 10%. It has also failed to keep up with average earnings, either in the private sector or the public sector, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies has confirmed.Highly misleading on its own. Implying that nurses are paid less than private sector but as the rest of the Twitter thread says the average nurses pay is still 27% above the average private sector worker. He also indicates that lower paid have done better which has pushed up private sector average (also true in public/NHS). Then there are additionals to factor in like holiday, pensions etc. Yes. And yet the NHS can't fill its empty vacancies and the rate at which people are leaving is increasing. Why are they leaving for private sector jobs that people on the thread seem to be suggesting are worse paid and have fewer perks? (and are you really OK with public sector workers getting year on year sub-inflation pay rises? How do you think this is going to effect recruitment and retention?)
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keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Dec 14, 2022 19:21:25 GMT
I don't entirely agree with the comments about one very large source of demand. Yes there is of course substantial truth in that statement and so it is a fair point. But other outlets exist and are used. e.g. nurses leave the NHS, and then effectively come and work back for it at but via agency provided nursing staff (at higher cost to the NHS). Some of that is a function of agenda for change whereby instead of time and a half some bands were paid flat rate, and other bands were paid nowt , ie it was expected as part of salary. Therefore those staff chose to say no to overtime, but were prepared to come in as bank nurses on twice the pay.
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