mogish
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Post by mogish on Dec 13, 2022 16:10:11 GMT
Am I the only one who is losing sympathy for strikers? I get it with the posties who aren't paid much but the long term damage to RM is probably irreversible. Nurses... I think its nhs bad management and lack of new recruitment that's causing the stress than money. Rail workers... I know they dont all earn 60k a year as drivers, but I'm sure a lot of people would do their jobs for what they get paid and accept 9% over 2 years. No idea how the government will fix any if this but surely it's going to cost us all a damn site more in the future to do anything and will only make inflation worse?
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Dec 13, 2022 16:28:04 GMT
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Post by bracknellboy on Dec 13, 2022 16:30:39 GMT
Am I the only one who is losing sympathy for strikers?I get it with the posties who aren't paid much but the long term damage to RM is probably irreversible. Nurses... I think its nhs bad management and lack of new recruitment that's causing the stress than money. Rail workers... I know they dont all earn 60k a year as drivers, but I'm sure a lot of people would do their jobs for what they get paid and accept 9% over 2 years. No idea how the government will fix any if this but surely it's going to cost us all a damn site more in the future to do anything and will only make inflation worse? what on earth would make you think you are the only one ? The RMT is nothing other than a self serving institution. For decades they have demanded pay rises, guaranteed job protection, and virtually no changes to working practises. They have done so while typically while waving shrouds and claiming it is in the interests of public safety. Rather than the rank self interest that it actually is. I hope that the universal cost of living crisis combined with the job insecurity and changes that many people will have experienced in recent times will ensure they get very limited public sympathy. This could be the moment that meaningful changes to operating practises can get pushed through. Nurses I have a bit more sympathy for. They are working in a broken system. There are also large numbers of vacancies as I understand it: a free market indicator that the balance of renumeration vs vocation has gone out of kilter. I would have been less sympathetic in the past. Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of people will feel that given the mammoth NHS waiting list and a burgeoning national debt, money that is available may be better spent than simply increasing pay and fuelling tax requirements and inflation.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 13, 2022 16:50:52 GMT
Less than 25% of the UK workforce are in a union. 100% of strikers in December are in a union.
It's not rocket science to see where the problem is?
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Post by overthehill on Dec 13, 2022 17:38:42 GMT
Am I the only one who is losing sympathy for strikers? I get it with the posties who aren't paid much but the long term damage to RM is probably irreversible. Nurses... I think its nhs bad management and lack of new recruitment that's causing the stress than money. Rail workers... I know they dont all earn 60k a year as drivers, but I'm sure a lot of people would do their jobs for what they get paid and accept 9% over 2 years. No idea how the government will fix any if this but surely it's going to cost us all a damn site more in the future to do anything and will only make inflation worse?
The 5 unions affiliated to the Labour Party all want to win the next election. Pawns and politics. Inflation was the opportunity they prayed for to bring down the government. I can't stand unions or their leaders. They tried to stop my car from entering my work premises about 40 years ago at Ferranti and one of them ended up with crushed toes. They are all nicey and pleasant until you tell them I'm not in a union, no thanks, now move.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Dec 13, 2022 18:08:48 GMT
Am I the only one who is losing sympathy for strikers?I get it with the posties who aren't paid much but the long term damage to RM is probably irreversible. Nurses... I think its nhs bad management and lack of new recruitment that's causing the stress than money. Rail workers... I know they dont all earn 60k a year as drivers, but I'm sure a lot of people would do their jobs for what they get paid and accept 9% over 2 years. No idea how the government will fix any if this but surely it's going to cost us all a damn site more in the future to do anything and will only make inflation worse? what on earth would make you think you are the only one ? The RMT is nothing other than a self serving institution. For decades they have demanded pay rises, guaranteed job protection, and virtually no changes to working practises. They have done so while typically while waving shrouds and claiming it is in the interests of public safety. Rather than the rank self interest that it actually is. I hope that the universal cost of living crisis combined with the job insecurity and changes that many people will have experienced in recent times will ensure they get very limited public sympathy. This could be the moment that meaningful changes to operating practises can get pushed through. Nurses I have a bit more sympathy for. They are working in a broken system. There are also large numbers of vacancies as I understand it: a free market indicator that the balance of renumeration vs vocation has gone out of kilter. I would have been less sympathetic in the past. Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of people will feel that given the mammoth NHS waiting list and a burgeoning national debt, money that is available may be better spent than simply increasing pay and fuelling tax requirements and inflation. Didn't they ask for 19% ? And no its not a symptom of a free market because the market isn't free. Only people who are allowed to work here and are suitably qualified can apply. As for unions I have no problem with them at all. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to stop work so long as their employer can sack them if not needed or wanted anymore.
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p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Dec 13, 2022 18:21:27 GMT
Agree. I've had it up here with strikes.
All these strikers have been offered very generous guaranteed pay increases and yet they still stick two fingers up at their employers and the public they are supposed to serve.
Nurses demand 19% which is beyond a joke.
Moaning, whinging public sector workers don't realise how good they have it with their guaranteed monthly paid packets whether they perform or not and almost 370 days a year of 'annual leave'.
Wait until Labour come into power. Then these sods' pay packets will be stuffed with as many fifty quid notes as the union barons who fund Labour want and your taxes will go through the roof to raise the billions required.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Dec 13, 2022 18:38:57 GMT
I was expecting a barrage of abuse from my post however its refreshing to hear im not the only one getting sick of all this.
A lot of these strikes Definately seems to be politically driven. Just hope getting ground down doesnt lead to giving in th the TU as this will just open floodgates to more issues.
Will be interesting, or should that be frustrating to see how airports function with border force also going on strike when/if railways are still not fully operational.
The quicker this is all resolved the better.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Dec 13, 2022 18:49:15 GMT
Two things.
1) The NHS is screwed when it comes to retaining staff, with record vacancies. There has been a huge real terms reduction in salaries since 2008. This year with high inflation it's the final straw. The "independent" pay review bodies set up to avoid this after strikes in the 70s were over ridden by successive governments since 2008. Health workers have been too reluctant or too incompetent to do anything about this. Now, a 19% pay rise still wouldn't even reverse those real terms cuts. The simple truth is that if you want to keep good people in the health service you need to pay them more. There is no "money would be better spent on something else" because the NHS IS the people working in it. Doctors are leaving in their droves because they have better options elsewhere now. You may not immediately notice the difference, but it is a relentless drip, drip, and then suddenly everything is broken. We are there. (And add to the eroded pay the worsened working conditions - tick box culture, IT that doesn't work so that everything takes longer, increased demands, understaffing, awful management, constant complaints to deal with, etc etc etc. I have never seen the amount of demoralisation in the NHS as there is now).
2) The government wants a fight as it's the only way they can stay in power. It's a bit like Thatcher and the miners (though she had the Falklands too). Breaking the unions and winning wars wins elections.
Perhaps I am being a bit dramatic, but I think the NHS as we have known it since 1948 is probably gone forever. The staff are giving up. When they lose again this time, then basically, that'll be it - especially if a non-strike clause is imposed as is being threatened.
So of course, you don't have to support the staff, and you may argue they're overpaid, underworked, have gold plated pension (which is just deferred pay, and has also been eroded by increased contributions and pensions tax). But be aware what is happening, how precarious the situation is, and that this is an existential threat to the NHS as we know it.
OK, that was more than 2 things. Sorry.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 13, 2022 18:58:07 GMT
Am I the only one who is losing sympathy for strikers?I get it with the posties who aren't paid much but the long term damage to RM is probably irreversible. Nurses... I think its nhs bad management and lack of new recruitment that's causing the stress than money. Rail workers... I know they dont all earn 60k a year as drivers, but I'm sure a lot of people would do their jobs for what they get paid and accept 9% over 2 years. No idea how the government will fix any if this but surely it's going to cost us all a damn site more in the future to do anything and will only make inflation worse? what on earth would make you think you are the only one ? The RMT is nothing other than a self serving institution. For decades they have demanded pay rises, guaranteed job protection, and virtually no changes to working practises. They have done so while typically while waving shrouds and claiming it is in the interests of public safety. Rather than the rank self interest that it actually is. I hope that the universal cost of living crisis combined with the job insecurity and changes that many people will have experienced in recent times will ensure they get very limited public sympathy. This could be the moment that meaningful changes to operating practises can get pushed through. Nurses I have a bit more sympathy for. They are working in a broken system. There are also large numbers of vacancies as I understand it: a free market indicator that the balance of renumeration vs vocation has gone out of kilter. I would have been less sympathetic in the past. Nonetheless, I suspect a lot of people will feel that given the mammoth NHS waiting list and a burgeoning national debt, money that is available may be better spent than simply increasing pay and fuelling tax requirements and inflation. RCN offering it's staff 4.5% +£1200 while demanding 3 times that for its members. The staff are the ones who will coordinate the strike but maybe on strike themselves.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 13, 2022 19:27:53 GMT
Maybe not related but the RCN seems to have become more militant since it became necessary to have a degree. Perhaps those with degrees are more money driven than the older nurses, or is it that they have student loans to repay
Average Nurse around £35K Tube Driver £55K Paramedic £33,500
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 13, 2022 19:42:16 GMT
Two things. 1) The NHS is screwed when it comes to retaining staff, with record vacancies. There has been a huge real terms reduction in salaries since 2008. This year with high inflation it's the final straw. The "independent" pay review bodies set up to avoid this after strikes in the 70s were over ridden by successive governments since 2008. Health workers have been too reluctant or too incompetent to do anything about this. Now, a 19% pay rise still wouldn't even reverse those real terms cuts. The simple truth is that if you want to keep good people in the health service you need to pay them more. There is no "money would be better spent on something else" because the NHS IS the people working in it. Doctors are leaving in their droves because they have better options elsewhere now. You may not immediately notice the difference, but it is a relentless drip, drip, and then suddenly everything is broken. We are there. (And add to the eroded pay the worsened working conditions - tick box culture, IT that doesn't work so that everything takes longer, increased demands, understaffing, awful management, constant complaints to deal with, etc etc etc. I have never seen the amount of demoralisation in the NHS as there is now). 2) The government wants a fight as it's the only way they can stay in power. It's a bit like Thatcher and the miners (though she had the Falklands too). Breaking the unions and winning wars wins elections. Perhaps I am being a bit dramatic, but I think the NHS as we have known it since 1948 is probably gone forever. The staff are giving up. When they lose again this time, then basically, that'll be it - especially if a non-strike clause is imposed as is being threatened. So of course, you don't have to support the staff, and you may argue they're overpaid, underworked, have gold plated pension (which is just deferred pay, and has also been eroded by increased contributions and pensions tax). But be aware what is happening, how precarious the situation is, and that this is an existential threat to the NHS as we know it. OK, that was more than 2 things. Sorry. Interestingly, you could replace "NHS" above with "Civil Service" and the same applies, but perhaps for even longer. The CS is still (oddly) perceived by most as Whitehall mandarins in bowler hats and everybody has wanted to see them done down. The public have welcomed with open arms successive cuts to CS pay, pension, terms and conditions for decades and they've ended up with the CS they asked for. When ministers receive poor quality advice and the public diminished and low quality services these days, one has only to look at pay & conditions and realise the best brains long ago went elsewhere for a career, exactly as predicted. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 13, 2022 20:05:23 GMT
Ive said this before but I remember my Mother saying that in the mid 70s there was one admin person in the Hospital she worked in per 20 beds, when she left in the late 90s it was 1-1. Nurses of my acquaintance tell me they get constantly hassled by 20 week "monitors" "bed monitors" etc etc.
A large number of beds are blocked by patients who can't be discharged because they Nursing Homes etc can't cope. this means A&E is full, The Welsh Ambulance service is saying 60% of crews are sat outside hospitals unable to hand patients over. People are also going to A&E because they can't get to see a GP. Lack of GP Appointments is in part due to many now only working 4 days a week.
In my surgery the GP's work Monday to Friday, But Monday is Paperwork day so they only do emergency appointments, Friday is a no appointments day except for emergencies. That means you can only get an appointment for Tuesday to Thursday, This makes it almost impossible to get through on Tuesday, to book an appointment.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 13, 2022 20:06:26 GMT
Maybe not related but the RCN seems to have become more militant since it became necessary to have a degree. Perhaps those with degrees are more money driven than the older nurses, or is it that they have student loans to repay Average Nurse around £35KTube Driver £55K Paramedic £33,500 That seems to depend on who you ask... "According to the government, the average basic pay for nurses is currently around £37,000. It was £35,600 until March 2022. It says basic pay for newly qualified nurses (band 5) is £27,055 having been £25,655 until March - an increase of 5.5%. It comes after NHS workers were given a 3% pay rise in 2021/22.
Intermediate pay for a newly-qualified nurse who has had two years of service is £29,180, with four years amounting to £32,934. Band six pay sees wages of between £33,706 and £40,588 depending on length of service. Band seven salaries vary from £41,659 to £47,672.
While the average UK salary is currently £31,772 a year (£611 a week)"So they are far better paid than the average UK worker. At your next interaction with the Civil Service, bear in mind the salaries in the departments you are likely to be dealing with... "At DWP, for example, the median pay is £26,890, and at the Home Office it is £25,120".
Some interesting graphics at that link.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Dec 13, 2022 20:22:54 GMT
Lol in many band 5 is a senior staff nurse, Band 6 is sister , and Band 7 is Matron
BAND 5 is not definitely not newly qualified nurses
I know nurse specialists who are band 6
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