james
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Post by james on Dec 27, 2016 22:18:49 GMT
imho a simple fixed price sm would have the same liquidity as the other simple sm offerings The facts don't support that. There is availability for almost all of the Ablrate loans almost all the time. There is usually no availability for almost all loans at par only markets like Moneything and Saving Stream. Liquidity applies to what buyers who want to get invested can buy, not just to what can be sold. The par only markets are showing the classic Soviet and other forced pricing scarce goods rationing mechanisms, queues and limited availability so you usually can't buy at any price but have to hope that you are around when there is a delivery/offer before it all gets snapped up. Variable pricing markets like Ablrate are the way free markets solve that and make the goods available most of the time, just as Soviet markets had to introduce personal plots and right to set prices to help to solve theirs. I don't yet know of a black market in loans - off platform extra payments - in any of the par only markets but that's also one of the balancing mechanisms that price controls apply creation pressure to. I have seen some limited bartering offers, another of the balancing mechanisms, but don't know whether any was done at non-par values.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Dec 27, 2016 22:51:39 GMT
imho a simple fixed price sm would have the same liquidity as the other simple sm offerings The facts don't support that. There is availability for almost all of the Ablrate loans almost all the time. There is usually no availability for almost all loans at par only markets like Moneything and Saving Stream. Liquidity applies to what buyers who want to get invested can buy, not just to what can be sold. The par only markets are showing the classic Soviet and other forced pricing scarce goods rationing mechanisms, queues and limited availability so you usually can't buy at any price but have to hope that you are around when there is a delivery/offer before it all gets snapped up. Variable pricing markets like Ablrate are the way free markets solve that and make the goods available most of the time, just as Soviet markets had to introduce personal plots and right to set prices to help to solve theirs. I don't yet know of a black market in loans - off platform extra payments - in any of the par only markets but that's also one of the balancing mechanism that price controls apply creation pressure to. I have seen some limited bartering offers, another of the balancing mechanisms, but don't know whether any was done at non-par values. It might be Soviet as you describe it, but is much simpler to understand. Having a lot of parts on sale and not being bought, I do not see it as liquid. Re black market - if you learn about it with respect to LC, let me know. As it is, on LC is very opaque, colourless but opaque; so a bit of colour, any, is better than what we have.
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james
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Post by james on Dec 28, 2016 4:44:39 GMT
Having a lot of parts on sale and not being bought, I do not see it as liquid. The facts don't really seem to support that either. About £43,000 sold since 14/12/16 and I sold around £1,400 worth in the last few days on 5 or so different loans, all above par. Someone wanting to sell more at par could undoubtedly have sold a lot more and at the moment there's about 9k of instantly realisable bids at a hair below par and higher. People getting the wrong idea about that is part of why I've started to add sales total when I update the secondary market post. People do vary in how keen they are to sell and at what price, including me. I'll offer relatively unattractive prices if I'm willing but not particularly keen to sell, or cheaper if I'm more keen.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Dec 28, 2016 7:47:22 GMT
I value simplicity over the variable rates. Not to mention the extra complexity that it adds with capital gain/loss. For the volumes that you transact, it might be worth it. For me it is not. You might have the time (so it's worth it) to do all the additions. All I see is a lot of parts for sale and most at increased rates. The ones that are sold at a discount I start asking myself, why are these people wanting to get rid of these parts? Is there something wrong with the loan? You might argue that you just need the money of those loans quickly, but how can I be sure? How can I be sure that after I buy discounted loans, I will not have to discount them further to sell them? Par is the way to go for me.
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james
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Post by james on Dec 28, 2016 16:00:00 GMT
The ones you see sticking around in offers are the ones that are at less attractive prices, not usually where the deals are currently being done. Same for bids at or well below par, they stick around because they are at lower prices than sellers usually want.
If you want to trade at par, just go ahead and do it. Nothing is forcing you to set an offer price or bid price other than 100% to sell or buy at par, respectively, so just do it if you like. For most loans you will then see the same price control effect as at the par only places: rapid selling at par and no or slow buying at par due to a lack of enough willing sellers at that price to meet the demand. You can also sell to the existing par and higher bids instantly if you like.
I don't know of any cases at Ablrate where offers to buy or sell lower than par mean something bad. Nor do I know of any where offers to buy or sell above par reflect something wonderful. It's all just supply and demand reflected in the prices. The below par ones are just moving a bit slowly vs seller desire because most existing potential buyers have all they want.
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james
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Post by james on Dec 28, 2016 19:13:10 GMT
I guess this 'rule' may have an exception There is one partial exception, a loan paying on that day quarterly instead of monthly.
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Post by webbski9 on Dec 29, 2016 8:38:14 GMT
Many Thanks newp2p and James
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Post by webbski9 on Dec 29, 2016 8:46:31 GMT
Ablender and James. whilst I agree the MT method of trading on the SM is extremely simple , Ablrates is much more akin to most Market Places in the Financial World . In particular , selling at par is rarely a problem, and offers under par usually hint at investors appetite for that particular loan rather than a " problem". Also, on Ablrate, you have a true two way market. This solves the MT problem of lack of deal flow on the SM.I love both platforms ,and every p2p platform can learn investor communication from Ed at MT,but ,imo,Ablrate has the most credible SM.
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archie
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Post by archie on Dec 29, 2016 9:06:35 GMT
I much prefer the selling at par, no rolled up interest method. Platforms operating differently should be seen as a strength as everyone can choose the platforms that suit them best.
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Post by ablrate on Dec 30, 2016 14:16:01 GMT
I agree with Archie - it's each to their own.
We have some work to do on the SM, including some pretty good additions which we think you will like. Our view is, and has always been, that liquidity is very important, and we believe a two way market promotes this better than a static market but you have to have a critical mass of users and loans. So we are making big changes to the sign up process/verification and we are creating something pretty awesome for borrowers, to increase the flow of loans directly pitched to the platform.
On Par vs two way market, if you are restricted to trading at par, what happens when a credit profile of a business changes? It's an extreme example to prove a point, but what if you had bought debt from a small company at 15% and it became extremely successful (barring the hypotheticals... debt bought back etc etc), would you sell at par? I certainly wouldn't. The idea being that the debt from the business is no longer a 15% risk... it might be deserve a rate of 7% for the risk taken for example. In a par market how do you deal with that? How do you reward the lender who was taking the initial risk, but allow a more risk averse lender to get involved?
But I do agree with the comments about information... how do I know where the market for the debt is right? What we are doing in 2017 with the SM is giving more information for you to make pricing decisions in the SM.
All the best Ablrate
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Post by webbski9 on Dec 30, 2016 15:44:36 GMT
Thanks Ablate...looking forward to seeing the enhancements Happy New Year
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Post by meledor on Jan 3, 2017 10:00:31 GMT
It is good that we have finally got an Excel download feature. Is there any chance of there being a unique data field referencing the loan. At the moment all we have is a free-form Transactions Comments field where sometimes for a given loan the transactions are described by the asset subject to the loan and other times the borrower.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Jan 3, 2017 11:49:02 GMT
The clear, easy ability to see how much interest I have earnt for the month above any amounts bought.
I thought FS was a pain having to reconcile different sets of data, for ABL I had to use historical, manual notes!
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ganymede
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Post by ganymede on Jan 3, 2017 12:26:04 GMT
The clear, easy ability to see how much interest I have earnt for the month above any amounts bought. I thought FS was a pain having to reconcile different sets of data, for ABL I had to use historical, manual notes! My account history, click on show filters, select interest repayments, set a from date, then to date. Click on search. Now download into spread sheet, and sum the interest payment column. Just in case your manual notes fail. Results might be 1p out due to rounding. Took me longer to type the post to the forum than to find Decembers interest paid.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Jan 3, 2017 12:39:19 GMT
The clear, easy ability to see how much interest I have earnt for the month above any amounts bought. I thought FS was a pain having to reconcile different sets of data, for ABL I had to use historical, manual notes! My account history, click on show filters, select interest repayments, set a from date, then to date. Click on search. Now download into spread sheet, and sum the interest payment column. Just in case your manual notes fail. Results might be 1p out due to rounding. Took me longer to type the post to the forum than to find Decembers interest paid. Thank you for your very quick post. It is, as you said, extremely easy to find total paid interest for the month. How do you calculate how much December interest was what you 'earned' above the accrued interest you already purchased across many individual loan parts on the SM? Edit - to clarify, my first investment is recorded as Buy 49.97 for 50.00 whereas I need to know that it was discounted and included 0.40 interest bought in that month's interest. (I'm a non-tax payer and am only interested in my return on total purchase costs.) Whilst I have to waste time on FS I can at least glean this across My Current Investments, Investment History and Account Movements; for ABL I can't even see this information is available.
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