btc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 193
Likes: 132
|
Post by btc on Sept 20, 2017 17:49:33 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? Other platforms either collect the interest upfront or the interest is collected monthly. But with funding secure it's, meh, we'll wait for 6 months and gently ask the borrower, if they can't/won't pay they'll do nothing for 2 years.
|
|
archie
Posts: 1,866
Likes: 1,861
|
Post by archie on Sept 20, 2017 17:51:34 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? Other platforms either collect the interest upfront or the interest is collected monthly. But with funding secure it's, meh, we'll wait for 6 months and gently ask the borrower, if they can't/won't pay they'll do nothing for 2 years. It's the standard pawn model. I don't think it's appropriate for property.
|
|
Liz
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 1,297
|
Post by Liz on Sept 20, 2017 18:05:07 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? Other platforms either collect the interest upfront or the interest is collected monthly. But with funding secure it's, meh, we'll wait for 6 months and gently ask the borrower, if they can't/won't pay they'll do nothing for 2 years. Lots of platforms roll-up interest on loans. Do nothing for 2 years is harsh! FS is not the only platform where it can be frustrating at the length of time it can take to solve "problem" loans.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 20, 2017 21:32:12 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? The failure to keep investors informed is not just because interest isn't due until loan maturity. It must be a conscious decision by fundingsecure not to follow up with borrowers. There's no reason at all why they couldn't keep in regular contact and find out what's happening. (I suppose it's possible that they actually might be doing that now but simply aren't bothering to keep us informed.) I find this most unhelpful when the exit plan depends on a refinance, and FS give us no clue whether the borrower is making any progress in that direction. Have they even started looking for a replacement lender? Or if the borrower needs PP, for instance, shouldn't FS be letting us know whether it's been applied for? And, if so, what sort of reaction has come from the planners? Or if the borrower is going to repay a loan out of the proceeds of a sale, whether the property is even on the market? Or if the borrower is using the money to refurbish a property, whether the work has been done -- or not even started? Keeping in regular contact with borrowers would put FS in a lot better position to deal with overdue loans. As they seem to be operating now, FS won't have a clue what a borrower is going to do until they write to them at maturity -- and receive a response. And if a recovery process is going to be needed, FS can't get it started promptly because they have had no advance warning time to start formulating a plan.
|
|
bugs4me
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,845
Likes: 1,478
|
Post by bugs4me on Sept 20, 2017 22:12:34 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? Other platforms either collect the interest upfront or the interest is collected monthly. But with funding secure it's, meh, we'll wait for 6 months and gently ask the borrower, if they can't/won't pay they'll do nothing for 2 years. It's not just FS that are 'guilty' of keeping investors up to date - there are a fair few other platforms that fall into that category. Of course, they do need to have the relevant information in order to pass on the details and that means ongoing monitoring. Probably not important in the conventional pawn world where the platform has possession of the item but property is a totally different proposition. IMO many of the platforms are simply out of their depth. Whether it's a lack of (quality) staff or just a basic lack of understanding as to how the property markets operate I frankly have no idea. It is unacceptable that once a default occurs then things just go on and on with little (if any) updates from the platform concerned. I suspect it's often because they simply don't know what to do and prefer to ride on the back of frivolous promises of jam tomorrow from the borrowers. Headlights and rabbits spring to mind. Bearing in mind some of the funding opportunities offered are based upon a VR which you could be forgiven is often a work of fiction. Then when those chickens come home to roost the lenders are left with the losses when the platform eventually gets round to finalising matters after kicking the can down the road for several months or indeed years. It doesn't have to be this way as sometimes you can check those inflated VR's. Surely the platforms could do the same but then again it isn't their money is it?
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Sept 20, 2017 22:16:32 GMT
Funding secure do not keep investors up to date during the loan term (6 months). This is because they do not collect the interest payments until the 6 month period is up. Is it just me that thinks that this practice is wrong? Other platforms either collect the interest upfront or the interest is collected monthly. But with funding secure it's, meh, we'll wait for 6 months and gently ask the borrower, if they can't/won't pay they'll do nothing for 2 years. Other platforms do not collect interest from the borrower upfront - the borrower is borrowing cash not paying it upfront! The interest is collected from the lenders and then paid back to them on a monthly basis (in effect paying themselves). On a pawn/bridging loan there is no income for the borrower to be paying the interest from. The practice isn't wrong it's standard and has nothing to do with keeping the investors up to date. If they had the investors own cash to pay back to them as 'interest' it may give the illusion that everything is a bed of roses but it isn't actually transmitting any information about the loan.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 20, 2017 22:42:38 GMT
On a pawn/bridging loan there is no income for the borrower to be paying the interest from. The practice isn't wrong it's standard and has nothing to do with keeping the investors up to date. If they had the investors own cash to pay back to them as 'interest' it may give the illusion that everything is a bed of roses but it isn't actually transmitting any information about the loan. IMHO the principal difference between the standard pawn model that FS use and the retained interest up front that Lendy use is the impact on LTV. With a six-month 70% LTV loan at FS, the LTV may start at 70% but it will have increased to about 77% by the time the loan matures. With a six-month 70% LTV loan at Lendy, the LTV will be 70% at the time it matures. If the borrower doesn't repay at maturity, a property loan requires LPA receivers to be appointed and it's probably going to take at least six months to achieve a sale. By the time the sale happens the LTV of the FS loan would be up to about 85% and the LTV of the Lendy loan would be up to about 77%. It doesn't take much of a discount from the 'open market value' to make it difficult to obtain a full recovery of capital and interest from the forced sale proceeds, but it's obviously going to be harder to achieve that from a 85% LTV loan than from a 77% loan. ... if the valuations are reliable, of course.
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Sept 21, 2017 15:34:57 GMT
On a pawn/bridging loan there is no income for the borrower to be paying the interest from. The practice isn't wrong it's standard and has nothing to do with keeping the investors up to date. If they had the investors own cash to pay back to them as 'interest' it may give the illusion that everything is a bed of roses but it isn't actually transmitting any information about the loan. IMHO the principal difference between the standard pawn model that FS use and the retained interest up front that Lendy use is the impact on LTV. With a six-month 70% LTV loan at FS, the LTV may start at 70% but it will have increased to about 77% by the time the loan matures. With a six-month 70% LTV loan at Lendy, the LTV will be 70% at the time it matures. If the borrower doesn't repay at maturity, a property loan requires LPA receivers to be appointed and it's probably going to take at least six months to achieve a sale. By the time the sale happens the LTV of the FS loan would be up to about 85% and the LTV of the Lendy loan would be up to about 77%. It doesn't take much of a discount from the 'open market value' to make it difficult to obtain a full recovery of capital and interest from the forced sale proceeds, but it's obviously going to be harder to achieve that from a 85% LTV loan than from a 77% loan. ... if the valuations are reliable, of course. If we were comparing the same things then I would agree. But we never are. No two loans are the same and many of the valuations are highly questionable. Furthermore most loans on Lendy are evaluated on a LGDV basis. You can't compare that to LTV but I fear many people do (or don't understand the difference). Give me 70% LTV over 70% LGDV any day of the week. Getting back to the OP, collecting extra money from lenders upfront to pay back to the lenders as 'interest' over the term does not mean the borrower is being compliant or indicates repayment is more likely. By all means claim the platform is flawed due to valuations, lack of enforcements, information etc but investors paying interest to themselves does not make one platform less 'wrong' than another.
|
|
|
Post by peerlessperil on Sept 21, 2017 16:12:05 GMT
Those platforms that pay interest monthly have simpler secondary markets.
The build up of significant accrued on FS loans causes major tax headaches, as you become liable for tax on the accrued interest on any loan that you acquire, making loans close to maturity very unattractive unless purchased in a tax exempt manner such as in an IFISA.
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Sept 21, 2017 16:44:18 GMT
Those platforms that pay interest monthly have simpler secondary markets. The build up of significant accrued on FS loans causes major tax headaches, as you become liable for tax on the accrued interest on any loan that you acquire, making loans close to maturity very unattractive unless purchased in a tax exempt manner such as in an IFISA. I see it as more of a benefit than a headache!
|
|
sqh
Member of DD Central
Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 1,212
|
Post by sqh on Sept 21, 2017 18:19:28 GMT
Regardless of whether you think it's flawed or not, the important fact is that the FS model is somewhat different from others. I like it, but if you think it's flawed, please go elsewhere.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 21, 2017 18:42:28 GMT
Those platforms that pay interest monthly have simpler secondary markets. The build up of significant accrued on FS loans causes major tax headaches, as you become liable for tax on the accrued interest on any loan that you acquire, making loans close to maturity very unattractive unless purchased in a tax exempt manner such as in an IFISA. peerlessperil: The tax headaches caused by the FS SM do not result just because FS doesn't pay interest until loans mature. They result because FS have taken a decision to pay all the interest accrued on a loan to the investors holding the loan parts at the time of the redemption. FS could have decided to do what many other platforms do, and that's to keep track of which investors owned parts for how long and apportion the interest received at maturity based on that. Example: Investor A puts £100 into Loan X, a 12% loan, when the loan is made. After five months, Investor A sells the part to Investor B. A month later, the loan matures and £6 of interest is collected. FS put £5 of the interest into Investor A's account and £1 into Investor B's account. Investor A has £5 of interest income to report to HMRC and pays whatever tax they owe on that income. Investor B has £1 of interest income to report to HMRC and pays whatever tax they owe on that income. Everything is straightforward and investors have no headaches.
|
|
|
Post by peerlessperil on Sept 21, 2017 20:14:37 GMT
Of course there would then be demands for a secondary market in accrued receivables....and we could recreate the gilt strip market in the p2p world. What fun!
Why don't you suggest it to them?
I suspect the Collateral approach to accrued is preferable, but then the borrowers get less leverage and FS's loan growth chart may falter.
Anyway, best to move on - we're talking about a platform who have assiduously ignored enhancement requests from lenders for a very long time. They can't even be bothered to provide an .csv download of your portfolio holdings. It also appears that they are struggling to keep track of when they should be paying out tranches of development loans, let alone accrued interest.
|
|
btc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 193
Likes: 132
|
Post by btc on Sept 21, 2017 20:59:10 GMT
Regardless of whether you think it's flawed or not, the important fact is that the FS model is somewhat different from others. I like it, but if you think it's flawed, please go elsewhere. I'm trying to go elsewhere but my money is stuck. I'm so glad that you are happy to invest in property loans not knowing what is happening in the first 6 months and don't care when it is time to either repay or renew the loan.
|
|
ben
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 589
|
Post by ben on Sept 21, 2017 21:19:25 GMT
The model in itself is not flawed. As I can see for some people willing to take risks the rewards can be substantive, ie around the end of the loan and if it is tax effective for you.
However my main issue is that they have been chasing the money without actually having the know how of how to handle defaults of these kinds. They have a few prime examples of this (stating they have handled this incompetently is probably an insult to incompetent people).
The few good loans they do have they do not put restrictions and these go in seconds to the same people, no way for each loan are these people sat at the computer and fastest then everybody else each time. Especially when fairly often loans are launched a few minutes early or late and then as soon as the loan is launched it is on the secondary market for a premium.
I still like FS for pawn but that is very few and far between and I have very little property loans on FS as I don't see them as being capable of recovery. I have loans in default on several sites and the FS ones are the only ones that I have accepted will be a significant loss (not including boats as that was my own fault so can't blame them for that)
|
|