bugs4me
Member of DD Central
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 10, 2017 15:28:30 GMT
What happens if info from there makes it onto the main forum and is treated as gospel by someone(should not be but you know it will) as it may be seen as official news rather then the open debate it appears at the moment. And then what happens if someone acts on that info and they lose money is the forum liable or is only ill will that will be generated? Speaking personally as a lender with a fair portion of my wealth invested in P2P, rather than as a platform rep, my two main worries relate to this. If closed door DD ends up being treated as gospel without oversight then that has the potential to either affect a good loan's reputation for the worse, or to be erroneously positive on a bad loan. Neither is a good result for lenders. Not for nefarious reason but just through simple mistake. The other potential issue is that of the privileged few being able to act on information earlier than others or to base decisions on information that isn't deemed worthy of being copied to the public forums. As someone instrumental in the initial formation of this forum my personal preference would be for it to continue as is, ignoring any breakaway splinter group. Communities fracture and split from time to time, this forum's success has been from its openness and wide appeal. DD Central would undermine that IMHO. If private discussion is needed then the model used with the AC private section seems to work well. As the moderators have confirmed there is very little if any moderation in that section and the general rules used on the public parts of the site are relaxed within those pink pages. This does require the participation of each of the platforms in order to carry out the KYC / authenticate each user, but there may be ways to work around platforms that do not wish to engage. It's just a random idea that I haven't put any thought into but if, for example, membership of AC were required to be able to access another platform's private area, and the reps were not permitted access unless they engaged, then the other platforms may feel a little more motivated knowing that their members would otherwise be directed to register with a competitor. Or members could asked to pay for their own DD - the cost is usually a few pounds which shouldn't be much for your typical P2P investor but quickly adds up at the forum level. There'll be a solution somewhere. The problem is chris that a great deal of information being posted by the platforms is meant (in their eyes at least) to be taken as gospel. Carrying out basic DD usually reveals what could be interpreted as deliberate omission by the platform. If the platforms operated in a more mature way then there would be little or no requirement for members to carry out their own DD - but that's not how it is. So somewhere we need a balance between fiction and fact. As far as platform involvement is concerned - if only springs to mind. Yes, they start off with the usual fanfare, promising the earth, moon and stars and quickly go to ground once they hit a bump. I believe everyone expects defaults from time to time but the cavalier attitude shown by platforms to lenders funds leaves a great deal to be desired. Nonetheless, lenders are 'incentivised' to invest by headline rates and of course the FCA. Having carried out DD on some platforms, it is beyond belief how they gained FCA authorisation but as I used to be governed myself by the old FSA it really shouldn't come as any surprise. Platforms, although not all, would prefer if the P2PIP did not exist albeit only a tiny minority of investors are members and that is the savoir of many a poorly run platform.
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Post by chris on Oct 10, 2017 15:40:36 GMT
Speaking personally as a lender with a fair portion of my wealth invested in P2P, rather than as a platform rep, my two main worries relate to this. If closed door DD ends up being treated as gospel without oversight then that has the potential to either affect a good loan's reputation for the worse, or to be erroneously positive on a bad loan. Neither is a good result for lenders. Not for nefarious reason but just through simple mistake. The other potential issue is that of the privileged few being able to act on information earlier than others or to base decisions on information that isn't deemed worthy of being copied to the public forums. As someone instrumental in the initial formation of this forum my personal preference would be for it to continue as is, ignoring any breakaway splinter group. Communities fracture and split from time to time, this forum's success has been from its openness and wide appeal. DD Central would undermine that IMHO. If private discussion is needed then the model used with the AC private section seems to work well. As the moderators have confirmed there is very little if any moderation in that section and the general rules used on the public parts of the site are relaxed within those pink pages. This does require the participation of each of the platforms in order to carry out the KYC / authenticate each user, but there may be ways to work around platforms that do not wish to engage. It's just a random idea that I haven't put any thought into but if, for example, membership of AC were required to be able to access another platform's private area, and the reps were not permitted access unless they engaged, then the other platforms may feel a little more motivated knowing that their members would otherwise be directed to register with a competitor. Or members could asked to pay for their own DD - the cost is usually a few pounds which shouldn't be much for your typical P2P investor but quickly adds up at the forum level. There'll be a solution somewhere. The problem is chris that a great deal of information being posted by the platforms is meant (in their eyes at least) to be taken as gospel. Carrying out basic DD usually reveals what could be interpreted as deliberate omission by the platform. If the platforms operated in a more mature way then there would be little or no requirement for members to carry out their own DD - but that's not how it is. So somewhere we need a balance between fiction and fact. As far as platform involvement is concerned - if only springs to mind. Yes, they start off with the usual fanfare, promising the earth, moon and stars and quickly go to ground once they hit a bump. I believe everyone expects defaults from time to time but the cavalier attitude shown by platforms to lenders funds leaves a great deal to be desired. Nonetheless, lenders are 'incentivised' to invest by headline rates and of course the FCA. Having carried out DD on some platforms, it is beyond belief how they gained FCA authorisation but as I used to be governed myself by the old FSA it really shouldn't come as any surprise. Platforms, although not all, would prefer if the P2PIP did not exist albeit only a tiny minority of investors are members and that is the savoir of many a poorly run platform. Copy'n'paste disclaimer: this is personal comment not as a representative of AC. IMHO holding discussion in private does not hold those platforms to account. Crowd DD is one of the most powerful tools platforms and lenders can rely upon but that includes being able to see people's thought process so you can audit the auditors. There are plenty of nervous and jumpy lenders who get rather excitable about the tiniest bit of misinformation that proper dialogue with a platform or the borrower can clarify, or where calmer heads within the forum can prevail. Equally there are major omissions made and times when platforms need to answer tough questions. As I said if platforms do not engage then there will be alternatives. Simply closing off this valuable process to a select few and publishing the results reduces its worth to all I suspect.
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shimself
Member of DD Central
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Post by shimself on Oct 10, 2017 16:03:15 GMT
A THIRD DD FORUM
Well not exactly but - the best place to discuss any loan is in the form of q&a on the platform as a tab on the loan in question. For a very big start it keeps every potential lender informed, not just us enthusiasts. If I were running the FCA or the P2PFA I'd insist on it (as well as co-investment by the platform for the life on the loan, ie skin in game)
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shimself
Member of DD Central
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Likes: 1,171
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Post by shimself on Oct 10, 2017 16:08:14 GMT
What does KYC stand for? I keep thinking of Kentucky Fried Chicken, but I don't think that is it. Know Yo ur Customer - ie all the tiresome identity bollocks
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oldgrumpy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,087
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 10, 2017 16:20:58 GMT
My DD is quite slow and limited compared with others, yet I've found out more scary things recently and used PMs (including to/from platform reps) to clarify and report things which could not (because of the rules) be discussed on this forum. Yes, consequently I declined to invest, and actually sold out of connected loans. I did add "clues/pointers" onto some threads - all I could do. Regular forum readers are well aware of "problem" loans. That includes AC (which is my leading platform by £s). They may have another awkward one simmering in the background IMHO. I think if this forum wants to have a non-public section so that this is more easily achieved, Admin should get on and set it up as soon as possible, and moderators and others should stop all this whinging now about other forums which pop up from time to time. What those do in their domain is none of this forum staff's business*. *edit: ... and no-one here has any business demanding "rights" from those organisations. |
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macq
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 1,199
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Post by macq on Oct 10, 2017 16:47:02 GMT
My DD is quite slow and limited compared with others, yet I've found out more scary things recently and used PMs (including to/from platform reps) to clarify and report things which could not (because of the rules) be discussed on this forum. Yes, consequently I declined to invest, and actually sold out of connected loans. I did add "clues/pointers" onto some threads - all I could do. Regular forum readers are well aware of "problem" loans. That includes AC (which is my leading platform by £s). They may have another awkward one simmering in the background IMHO. I think if this forum wants to have a non-public section so that this is more easily achieved, Admin should get on and set it up as soon as possible, and moderators and others should stop all this whinging now about other forums which pop up from time to time. What those do in their domain is none of this forum staff's business. if a non public section is the answer why not make the whole forum private with a general moderated section for visitors as a front page?
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Carter
Member of DD Central
Posts: 250
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Post by Carter on Oct 10, 2017 17:07:23 GMT
Like many this forum has been invaluable to me over the last year, the discussion and DD aspect especially has been a real education. Here's my two cents worth... - Posting by the rules as they stand seems to be a common gripe. The main driver of the rules is protection of the forum and it's members from potential legal action. The site's public and its contents get googled. Admin overhead applying the rules to protect the forum is a resource drain.
- The proposed private area within the forum that would allow uncensored posts without compromising the forum would be a good step IMO, especially regarding DD where details can now be explicit. As suggested this could also have the benefit of reducing admin overhead.
- IMO, all regular members should have access to all information, public and private, whether this ultimately influences their investment decisions is up to them.
- People joining other forums? No big deal, but lets be clear, they are separate forums. Let the members of this forum focus on it's own health. Is it still fit for purpose, does it need to evolve etc etc. Let the members drive the direction. The discussion in this thread alone demonstrates that there are more than enough members who would like to drive this forum forward positively.
Looking forward to this forum continuing to flourish and its members overcoming some of the issues that have been raised recently.
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on Oct 10, 2017 17:22:23 GMT
- IMO, all regular members should have access to all information
The problem is in deciding what is regular? All 3600 forum members were created equal, but they don't stay equal for long. 50% of members haven't logged on in the last 6 months, and 75% have less than 15 posts. Wherever you draw the line there will be a lot of moaning.
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elliotn
Member of DD Central
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Post by elliotn on Oct 10, 2017 17:29:25 GMT
Can I ask something on this point please (and I know there is the hidden DD-CENTRAL for this discussion, but I am replying to this point; move if you think it is best) I do believe that the future of the indie is important and it is clear that there has been some strain on the team here from the work it takes to run the forum to the point where closing the forum seems to be on the table. Can you clarify why DD-CENTRAL is necessary when it will inevitably add to your workload which seems completely counterproductive in the grand scheme of things? ...Mod workload could actually decrease as there will be a place that almost any forum member who wishes to can post links and unredacted details of borrowers. I can't remember moderating a single post on the AC private board, and the moderation of the AC public board is minimal as almost all contentious posts go straight onto the private board... If a non-public page reduces mod workload why were the initial requests for the SS page declined - could the ongoing save have offset the one-off coding (and perhaps lenders identifying something from a logged in page for ID if the platform did not engage)? This may have gone some way to preventing any unnecessary splinters and seems to have been undertaken efficiently with the recent introduction of DDC.
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Post by yorkshireman on Oct 10, 2017 18:00:13 GMT
My solution to the bucket of worms this has turned into would be to delete this thread, forget about it and carry on as though nothing had happened. Pretend you all went on a trip to Vegas. That’s the most sensible comment on the whole thread.
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Carter
Member of DD Central
Posts: 250
Likes: 549
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Post by Carter on Oct 10, 2017 18:05:44 GMT
- IMO, all regular members should have access to all information
The problem is in deciding what is regular? All 3600 forum members were created equal, but they don't stay equal for long. 50% of members haven't logged on in the last 6 months, and 75% have less than 15 posts. Wherever you draw the line there will be a lot of moaning. Personally I wouldn't start carving the members up by number of posts. Absolutely some members add real value here and others including myself extract far more value than they add. But it's a forum and all should have the opportunity to contribute. The purpose of a private area should be to open the interaction up further, not restrict it. For me I'd just be asking whether platform reps and the like should have access. Ultimately I'd say let the members decide.
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am
Posts: 1,495
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Post by am on Oct 10, 2017 18:20:49 GMT
The problem is chris that a great deal of information being posted by the platforms is meant (in their eyes at least) to be taken as gospel. Carrying out basic DD usually reveals what could be interpreted as deliberate omission by the platform. If the platforms operated in a more mature way then there would be little or no requirement for members to carry out their own DD - but that's not how it is. So somewhere we need a balance between fiction and fact. As far as platform involvement is concerned - if only springs to mind. Yes, they start off with the usual fanfare, promising the earth, moon and stars and quickly go to ground once they hit a bump. I believe everyone expects defaults from time to time but the cavalier attitude shown by platforms to lenders funds leaves a great deal to be desired. Nonetheless, lenders are 'incentivised' to invest by headline rates and of course the FCA. Having carried out DD on some platforms, it is beyond belief how they gained FCA authorisation but as I used to be governed myself by the old FSA it really shouldn't come as any surprise. Platforms, although not all, would prefer if the P2PIP did not exist albeit only a tiny minority of investors are members and that is the savoir of many a poorly run platform. Copy'n'paste disclaimer: this is personal comment not as a representative of AC. IMHO holding discussion in private does not hold those platforms to account. Crowd DD is one of the most powerful tools platforms and lenders can rely upon but that includes being able to see people's thought process so you can audit the auditors. There are plenty of nervous and jumpy lenders who get rather excitable about the tiniest bit of misinformation that proper dialogue with a platform or the borrower can clarify, or where calmer heads within the forum can prevail. Equally there are major omissions made and times when platforms need to answer tough questions. As I said if platforms do not engage then there will be alternatives. Simply closing off this valuable process to a select few and publishing the results reduces its worth to all I suspect. That is an argument for a private forum. A private forum isn't a perfect solution, but it gives the opportunity for misinformation to be corrected before it escapes into the wild.
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bugs4me
Member of DD Central
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 10, 2017 18:58:09 GMT
There lies part (or all) of the problem. You cannot realistically hold platforms to account whilst they manage to fund just about everything on offer. Many, as you are aware, do not bother responding. Hence I'm slowly but surely exiting platforms and going elsewhere but I won't be missed. Being realistic IMO, platforms will only be held to account if the FCA get actively involved (highly unlikely) or the media. Crowd DD is only effective if it's totally transparent which it cannot be on the P2PIP forum. So whilst not perfect, at least DD Central is a start and if it helps on the DD front then I'm all for it. If there's a negative regarding a loan proposal and I and maybe others decide not to invest is it really going to affect the platform with all those £££'s sloshing around - I doubt it. Whether platforms are invited or not is entirely up to the admins but even if they did come to the party, I suspect they wouldn't bother contributing as P2PIP forum members make up a tiny minority of lenders and they are aware of that fact. Hence most choose not to respond to valid negatives when posted.
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twoheads
Member of DD Central
Programming
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Post by twoheads on Oct 11, 2017 9:56:42 GMT
So far I have not seen a single post from a member of The 60 publicly revealing their membership of the new forum and explaining the reasons for them taking their chosen path and how or even if they are planning to share any of their discoveries with this forum. [My bold/blue] Is this special private forum actually a new forum or has it been around for ages coexisting symbiotically with the P2PIF? Is it simply newly discovered?
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Oct 11, 2017 10:12:19 GMT
So far I have not seen a single post from a member of The 60 publicly revealing their membership of the new forum and explaining the reasons for them taking their chosen path and how or even if they are planning to share any of their discoveries with this forum. [My bold/blue] Is this special private forum actually a new forum or has it been around for ages coexisting symbiotically with the P2PIF? Is it simply newly discovered? My informant who has been reading between the lines, is of the opinion it has been in existence for a year.
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