|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Mar 30, 2018 19:28:57 GMT
He says in the Statement of Affairs you are secured creditors secured on property developments and chattels and he hasn't included the client's account. Whereas the company has no physical property whatsoever only loans. Unless he has determined otherwise those loans are between the borrower and lender therefore you are not a secured lender of the company and he has failed to include £390,000,collectively, of your money. All of the foregoing is explicitly contrary to the contents of this "excellent report" GeorgeT ''s words not mine. I'm reserving judgement on the best way to present the SOA, but it appears to include Collateral Security Trustees Limited, which holds charges over those assets and a corresponding liability to the investors, so I was not surprised to see them on the SOA. Presumably the client account is being treated as completely separate as those funds are owned directly by investors, unlike the loan security which is owned indirectly. Perhaps Collateral Security Trustees Limited should have been left out of the SOA, but it is rather reassuring to see that some reconciliation has taken place. Leaving aside the matter of Collateral Security Trustee would you agree that none of the Collateral companies own property and developments or chattel assets?
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 666 
Likes: 641
|
Post by mason on Mar 30, 2018 19:36:12 GMT
I'm reserving judgement on the best way to present the SOA, but it appears to include Collateral Security Trustees Limited, which holds charges over those assets and a corresponding liability to the investors, so I was not surprised to see them on the SOA. Presumably the client account is being treated as completely separate as those funds are owned directly by investors, unlike the loan security which is owned indirectly. Perhaps Collateral Security Trustees Limited should have been left out of the SOA, but it is rather reassuring to see that some reconciliation has taken place. Leaving aside the matter of Collateral Security Trustee would you agree that none of the Collateral companies own property and developments or chattel assets? My understanding is that a group company is the legal title owner of each asset with trustee duties to the beneficial owner.
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Mar 30, 2018 19:41:01 GMT
Leaving aside the matter of Collateral Security Trustee would you agree that none of the Collateral companies own property and developments or chattel assets? My understanding is that a group company is the legal title owner of each asset with trustee duties to the beneficial owner. I believe that is a fundamental misconception. If you have a mortgage on your house you do not say the bank or building society own it.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 666
Likes: 641
|
Post by mason on Mar 30, 2018 19:42:47 GMT
My understanding is that a group company is the legal title owner of each asset with trustee duties to the beneficial owner. I believe that is a fundamental misconception. If you have a mortgage on your house you do not say the bank or building society own it. No, but they own a legal charge over the property up to the value of the mortgage. So are you taking issue with the fact that the refers to "Property & Developments" and it should be called something other than this in the SOA? Presumably this does not also apply to the "Chattels Assets", upon which buyback agreements were made for the most part.
|
|
GeorgeT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 1,576
|
Post by GeorgeT on Mar 30, 2018 19:44:26 GMT
To dual investor, How can you say the financial information was garbage. I assume that you do not have access to the Collateral bank accounts and financial records and all the rest of it so I don't really understand how you can say that the figures in the report were a load of rubbish. I have to say that after I read the report nothing jumped out of the page at me as being blatantly wrong. Dual investor you do seem very keen that this matter is passed to some London outfit who charge higher fees. If I was a cynic I might suggest that you might work for such a firm and were eyeing up the possibility of a nice big job coming your way. Read my original reply to an earlier post of yours and the one I have just written to averageguy. One does not have to see the company's books and records to know that the Statement of Affairs is contrary to the report and garbage. PS £48k to a small town Lancashire outfit for a few days work seems nice work to me if you can get it. For the record I do not work or have any business or professional relationship with the FCA proposed Administrators Thank you for explaining your thoughts. My comment about a big job coming away was a bit of a joke anyway because there would be an obvious conflict of interest in such a position. One point I would make is that your comment could be interpreted as suggesting you have an anti northern bias. I know that people who work in London charge higher fees on the whole than people who work in the North partly because overheads and business costs are higher, but I'm sure you weren't meaning to imply that people who work in places like Skelmersdale aren't as competent as people who work in London. I do not work anymore either but I did work for about 30 years or so and while I worked mostly in the South of England and also in London I did for a few years work in the North East and I had the exact same level of competence when I was up north as I did when I was down south although of course when I was down South and particularly when I was working in London I earned a lot more money and my time was charged out at a much higher hourly rate. Of personal interest to me is the fact that I always thought Skelmersdale was a lovely little village in the Lake District but when I look at my map I find it is near Wigan and that doesn't make it sound so appealing.
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Mar 30, 2018 19:48:08 GMT
I believe that is a fundamental misconception. If you have a mortgage on your house you do not say the bank or building society own it. No, but they own a legal charge over the property up to the value of the mortgage. But they do not own the property neither does Collateral.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 666
Likes: 641
|
Post by mason on Mar 30, 2018 19:51:53 GMT
No, but they own a legal charge over the property up to the value of the mortgage. But they do not own the property neither does Collateral. So are you taking issue with the fact that the SOA refers to "Property & Developments" and it should be called something other than this in the SOA (e.g. "loans secured on property & developments")? Presumably this does not also apply to the "Chattels Assets", upon which buyback agreements were made for the most part?
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Mar 30, 2018 19:56:21 GMT
Read my original reply to an earlier post of yours and the one I have just written to averageguy. One does not have to see the company's books and records to know that the Statement of Affairs is contrary to the report and garbage. PS £48k to a small town Lancashire outfit for a few days work seems nice work to me if you can get it. For the record I do not work or have any business or professional relationship with the FCA proposed Administrators Thank you for explaining your thoughts. My comment about a big job coming away was a bit of a joke anyway because there would be an obvious conflict of interest in such a position. One point I would make is that your comment could be interpreted as suggesting you have an anti northern bias. I know that people who work in London charge higher fees on the whole than people who work in the North partly because overheads and business costs are higher, but I'm sure you weren't meaning to imply that people who work in places like Skelmersdale aren't as competent as people who work in London. I do not work anymore either but I did work for about 30 years or so and while I worked mostly in the South of England and also in London I did for a few years work in the North East and I had the exact same level of competence when I was up north as I did when I was down south although of course when I was down South and particularly when I was working in London I earned a lot more money and my time was charged out at a much higher hourly rate. Of personal interest to me is the fact that I always thought Skelmersdale was a lovely little village in the Lake District but when I look at my map I find it is near Wigan and that doesn't make it sound so appealing. The proposed firm has a network of offices the nominated Administrators may be from their London office (I don't have that information) but the work will likely be done from their Manchester or Liverpool office. I would still expect their general hourly rates to be higher, but then again not as much as £48,000 for pre administration work.
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354 
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Mar 30, 2018 20:02:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by dualinvestor on Mar 30, 2018 20:03:24 GMT
But they do not own the property neither does Collateral. So are you taking issue with the fact that the SOA refers to "Property & Developments" and it should be called something other than this in the SOA (e.g. "loans secured on property & developments")? Presumably this does not also apply to the "Chattels Assets", upon which buyback agreements were made for the most part? If the clients account should not be entered (as you suggested earlier),the loans shouldn't be either on the same reasoning, Collateral is only agent and not principal debtor or creditor. Whichever reasoning is used the Statement of Affairs does not accord with the report.
|
|
GeorgeT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 1,576
|
Post by GeorgeT on Mar 30, 2018 20:04:59 GMT
48k does seem a lot for the limited time they have been on the case and it does raise a question about the coziness of the relationship between Collateral and RR.
I started out the day being 95% behind the existing administrators and wanting them to stay on the job but after reading all the posts on the forum today from my learned fellow forum members I have to say I'm now in a 50/50 situation on it.
|
|
Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 2,787
|
Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 30, 2018 20:30:07 GMT
The 48k was payment for work before the administration started, it was a pre-administration payment and has been paid. Everything they have done since the start of the administration is yet to be billed, ie, pretty much everything.
|
|
mason
Member of DD Central
Posts: 666
Likes: 641
|
Post by mason on Mar 30, 2018 20:41:45 GMT
So are you taking issue with the fact that the SOA refers to "Property & Developments" and it should be called something other than this in the SOA (e.g. "loans secured on property & developments")? Presumably this does not also apply to the "Chattels Assets", upon which buyback agreements were made for the most part? If the clients account should not be entered (as you suggested earlier),the loans shouldn't be either on the same reasoning, Collateral is only agent and not principal debtor or creditor. Whichever reasoning is used the Statement of Affairs does not accord with the report. I can understand the point you are making. I'm still struggling with the reasoning that if the contents of the clients account is not entered, then the legal charges, assignment of chattels, contents of the safe etc held in trust should not appear. These were entered with a corresponding entry deducting the value assigned to investors. Perhaps their inclusion is a consequence of there being a deficiency found during reconciliation - which raises its own questions. Presumably no such deficiency of funds was found in the clients account.
|
|
sarahcount
Member of DD Central
Posts: 359
Likes: 815
|
Post by sarahcount on Mar 30, 2018 21:12:11 GMT
Of personal interest to me is the fact that I always thought Skelmersdale was a lovely little village in the Lake District but when I look at my map I find it is near Wigan and that doesn't make it sound so appealing. Georget - You're obviously not a fan of the musical Blood Brothers where the characters are moved out of Liverpool to a certain new town full of Scousers on the outskirts of the city. WE'RE LEAVIN' THIS MESS FOR OUR NEW ADDRESS "SIXTY FIVE SKELMERSDALE LANE" Tell me it's not true, Say I only dreamed it, Etc etc www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHL_aH17xX4
|
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Mar 30, 2018 21:21:52 GMT
Of personal interest to me is the fact that I always thought Skelmersdale was a lovely little village in the Lake District but when I look at my map I find it is near Wigan and that doesn't make it sound so appealing. Georget - You're obviously not a fan of the musical Blood Brothers where the characters are moved out of Liverpool to a certain new town full of Scousers on the outskirts of the city. WE'RE LEAVIN' THIS MESS FOR OUR NEW ADDRESS "SIXTY FIVE SKELMERSDALE LANE" Tell me it's not true, Say I only dreamed it, Etc etc www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHL_aH17xX4Not entirely off topic, story of two brothers who it would have been better if they had not been reunited.
|
|
