sarahcount
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Post by sarahcount on Mar 30, 2018 21:28:38 GMT
Not entirely off topic, story of two brothers who it would have been better if they had not been reunited. "Did you hear the story of the Currie twins?"
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Mar 31, 2018 6:11:27 GMT
On what basis do you call it excellent? I would have thought the included Statement of Affairs claiming that the company own properties and developments of £15million, chattel assets of £1.7 million states there are £15million secured creditors with a £236,000 deficit and fails to disclose £390,000 client's account (all material errors) falls far short of excellent. I found the report to be very clearly written. It wa readable, well laid out and easy to understand. I only had to read it once. I know it contained a lot of 'spin' but of course it did. I believe an administrator should be an objective arbiter on behalf of creditors. That it contains 'a lot of 'spin' of course it did' for me means it fails this professional threshold (very high for insolvency practitioners) and so is not 'excellent'. There is a risk this morphs into an exercise in letting any misdeeds off the hook. For example: The report tells us that CUK was incorporated after the 2014 cut-off to trade with interim permission and seemed to open their portal shortly after submitting their application for full authorisation in 2016 and then withdrawing that submission. The two years the directors spent researching the sector between incorporation and go-live should have been sufficient to inform them there was a chance of this being deemed illegal (and to be prudent in not over relying on legal advice that conducting unregulated peer to peer activity did not contravene financial regulations). The fact that Coll followed the FCA guidelines for industry "credibility" is possibly "tacit" recognition of the appropriateness of this regime to their company. I find it remarkable the directors' appointed administrator makes no mention how they used the credit finance interim permission of a pawn broker on their website to give the impression they did indeed have FCA permissions to trade as a peer to peer company. They've settled on a line of legal advice of not requiring regulation despite apparent website statements to the contrary and the company rep repeatedly answering forum investors that they were regulated and their full submission was ongoing (as late as end of Jan 2018). To a layman, it seems they were trying to give the impression of being regulated not that they were unregulated. The FCA has culpability for allowing these directors to continue unregulated. They have 1000s of IPs across the whole financial industry to authorise. They adopt a risk based approach where they address potential systemic risk first. In p2p alone there is a cumulative loan book in the billions and CUK has a tiddly book that would have automatically seen them de-proritised. If there is a need to criticise the amount of resource available to the regulator to undertake this task then we must look at a government implementing department austerity just after the financial crisis that necessitated this change of regulator. It was the directors that continued to take my money and continued to do so even after preparing what might look like a cover-your-ass administration* and publishing T&Cs to leave the client funds as unsecured creditors just before taking the website down. And they took my money right up until the last minute with additional promotions which raises the obvious question of lawful trading. There's nigh on half a million in the business bank account and administrator's/directors' pockets. There will be ongoing book income such as exit fees and potential interest spread. If in the final reckoning I had to make a contribution, for example from my interest payments, that may be a worthwhile investment to ensure these directors - or any others - cannot lead to such mis-investments again. *Edit - information has been posted on DDC regarding fines on more than one occasion for this administrator [Coll DD - Adminstrstion report in full - post #55].
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Mar 31, 2018 8:02:54 GMT
Of personal interest to me is the fact that I always thought Skelmersdale was a lovely little village in the Lake District but when I look at my map I find it is near Wigan and that doesn't make it sound so appealing. Georget - You're obviously not a fan of the musical Blood Brothers where the characters are moved out of Liverpool to a certain new town full of Scousers on the outskirts of the city. WE'RE LEAVIN' THIS MESS FOR OUR NEW ADDRESS "SIXTY FIVE SKELMERSDALE LANE" Tell me it's not true, Say I only dreamed it, Etc etc www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHL_aH17xX4I remember , Saw this some years ago with the brilliant Bernie Nolan RIP
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james21
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Post by james21 on Mar 31, 2018 8:18:43 GMT
All speculation but here is my scenario of how it could end up;
1. New administrator appointed 2. Col owned funds used up by old administrator/legals 3. Cash in accounts uninvested returned to investors early in the process 4. New authorised operator selected and loan book transferred 5. The income to the business is £150k per month (assumed split COL business and investors) a declining amount as the loan book runs down, this is the only source of income unless new operator pays fee to buy the loan book 6. Col is viable business but the directors cant operate it. Directors will seek compensation on transfer and lost personal income for duration of administration. It may be that the new operator pays them a declining amount from COL portion of income running down until loans complete or some other deal. Another consideration is that if FCA had somehow allowed COL to continue instead of administration to allow them to comply they would likely have been hit with a significant fine possibly to sink the business. This point would be considered when in regard what the directors get out of this situation 7. Investors capital returned as loan book completes so no loss except any defaults 8. Timescale 6 months at least 9. How is the above to be paid for? The income as noted will pay for the administration, and possibly something for the directors. So no interest for investors for the duration, thereafter interest reinstated for the remainder of the loans duration
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 31, 2018 9:04:30 GMT
So lemme be sure I understand where this all is...
COL thought they were under interim approval - and were shown on the FCA list as being under interim approval. That interim approval had somehow got transferred from another outfit, which isn't allowed. The FCA twigged, and de-transferred it.
COL had to stop trading as a result. Administrators were appointed. The administrators are LIPs, but are not FCA approved for carrying out the business of managing the ongoing loans. So to keep the loans ongoing, somebody who IS FCA approved needs to manage them. That could be another LIP, which the FCA are suggesting - or it could be another approved platform taking over the book. The administrators report there are several offers from other approved platforms to take over the book.
Right?
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blender
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Post by blender on Mar 31, 2018 9:13:31 GMT
I believe an administrator should be an objective arbiter on behalf of creditors. That it contains 'a lot of 'spin' of course it did' for me means it fails this professional threshold (very high for insolvency practitioners) and so is not 'excellent'. There is a risk this morphs into an exercise in letting any misdeeds off the hook. ... Since reading the 'report' I have not taken sides, mainly because I am not a COL lender, but I could easily have been, and participating in this excellent forum really helps to understand the issues and to be a more informed lender in future. Before I read the report I supported the process of the administration and was keen to encourage lenders to have faith in that process. On reading the report, I realised I had been naïve. There are accountants, insolvency experts, regulatory experts, and probably lawyers who are contributing here, but my problem with the report comes from some experience in ways of reading. Not so much what it says, but how it might be received by readers. It seems to me that, apart from the judgement of the technical content required for the process - which is the domain of elliottm dualinvestors and others, not me - we should look for the purpose of its being made available. Who is it written for and what effect might it be expected to have on the intended readers? The first duty of the administrator is to the creditors, and this is a (draft leaked?) report to creditors containing proposals. But we are told their are no creditors, and no current insolvency - just inevitable future insolvency because a stop to trade had been enforced by others, I understand unjustifiably according to legal advice. The next duty is to the company, or effectively the owners, to maximise their assets coming out of this process. The report seems to do its duty there, but the process of appointment and funding disclosed looks to have features of what in other fields would be called a pre-pack administration. The report does not indicate any material difference between the position of the owners and the administrator, and we can assume they communicate effectively, within what is permissible. So, apart from the owners, for whom is this report written? It seems to be written for the lenders, and the means of it's release to this forum rather supports that. The lenders called for such a report, despite not being creditors of the business (and not wishing to be), and here it is. The report gives the impression that, not only has the business been forced to take this action by the FCA, possibly acting beyond its remit, but also that the FCA is now challenging the administration, in a way which is causing at least delay in resolving the financial issues for lenders. The administrator's proposals are presented as loss-free for lenders. But there is no balanced discussion between the undefined position of the FCA, presented as confused and arbitrary, and the current administrator. Within this report, it is clear that sides have been taken, between the current administrator and the owners, and the FCA. On the basis of this report, lenders are invited - by other independent parties - to consider that their best financial interest lies with supporting the current administrator. You take your choice. Now it may well be that if the FCA had sat this one out, and turned a blind eye to what they presumably consider to be a non-compliant business and administration, that Col lenders could have had a quicker and possibly cheaper resolution. However, FCA will look also at the general position, and might consider that allowing that to happen may set a bad precedent for p2p, and might be concerned that the business may continue or may be sold as a going concern, unregulated, and with the 'tacit' approval of FCA. FCA seem to have moved from the normal 'masterly inactivity' into panic mode where principles are at stake and every resource must be made available.
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littleoldlady
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Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Mar 31, 2018 9:31:57 GMT
All speculation but here is my scenario of how it could end up;1. New administrator appointed2. Col owned funds used up by old administrator/legals3. Cash in accounts uninvested returned to investors early in the process4. New authorised operator selected and loan book transferred5. The income to the business is £150k per month (assumed split COL business and investors) a declining amount as the loan book runs down, this is the only source of income unless new operator pays fee to buy the loan book 6. Col is viable business but the directors cant operate it. Directors will seek compensation on transfer and lost personal income for duration of administration. It may be that the new operator pays them a declining amount from COL portion of income running down until loans complete or some other deal. Another consideration is that if FCA had somehow allowed COL to continue instead of administration to allow them to comply they would likely have been hit with a significant fine possibly to sink the business. This point would be considered when in regard what the directors get out of this situation 7. Investors capital returned as loan book completes so no loss except any defaults 8. Timescale 6 months at least 9. How is the above to be paid for? The income as noted will pay for the administration, and possibly something for the directors. So no interest for investors for the duration, thereafter interest reinstated for the remainder of the loans duration
Is this interest or capital repayment? Wasn't interest retained up front?
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james21
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Post by james21 on Mar 31, 2018 9:50:35 GMT
All speculation but here is my scenario of how it could end up;1. New administrator appointed2. Col owned funds used up by old administrator/legals3. Cash in accounts uninvested returned to investors early in the process4. New authorised operator selected and loan book transferred5. The income to the business is £150k per month (assumed split COL business and investors) a declining amount as the loan book runs down, this is the only source of income unless new operator pays fee to buy the loan book 6. Col is viable business but the directors cant operate it. Directors will seek compensation on transfer and lost personal income for duration of administration. It may be that the new operator pays them a declining amount from COL portion of income running down until loans complete or some other deal. Another consideration is that if FCA had somehow allowed COL to continue instead of administration to allow them to comply they would likely have been hit with a significant fine possibly to sink the business. This point would be considered when in regard what the directors get out of this situation 7. Investors capital returned as loan book completes so no loss except any defaults 8. Timescale 6 months at least 9. How is the above to be paid for? The income as noted will pay for the administration, and possibly something for the directors. So no interest for investors for the duration, thereafter interest reinstated for the remainder of the loans duration
Is this interest or capital repayment? Wasn't interest retained up front? Page 23 "The ongoing monthly net interest receivable by the Group is in excess of £150,000" Regarding interest retained up front, I dont know perhaps someone does know. On a loan book of £23m interest of excess of £150k is about 8% per annum, which seems to be a low % if it relates to lenders income so perhaps this is the income to COL the report does not say, if it is then this suggests COL interest was not paid up front. If the £150k is not investors income then a call on investors income might be less that I speculated earlier
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snowmobile
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Post by snowmobile on Mar 31, 2018 9:56:11 GMT
As elliotn has rightly pointed out in his excellent post above the report does not appear professional. I have no reason to think that the leaked report is not genuine, but it certainly does not appear to meet the professional standards I would expect from a firm of Chartered Accountants and Insolvency Practitioners. The report is critical of the FCA whilst very defensive of the directors. I consequently have significant doubts over whose interests are being protected here. The creditors? Well we are told there aren't any secured or unsecured creditors according to section 5. The lenders? Whilst an offer to buy 100% of the loan book would be wonderful news, are we really expected to believe and trust in this? Offers can and do vanish at any time. I would have thought it more likely that another authorised firm could take over the running of the loan book. This would only return 100% to lenders if the loans were successfully repaid or refinanced. The directors? It could be argued that they are most in need of protection from the FCA. When looking at it from this point it becomes much clearer why the FCA are so keen to appoint their own Administrator, rather than one appointed by the directors. The employees? The report (5.4.1) blames the FCA for being unable to pay their wages. Even if this were resolved there could be some conflict between the employees being retained and paid for as long as possible, or effectively redundant if the alleged 'offer' to buy the whole loan book is accepted. The administrator? Section 10, whilst apparently standard wording, appears to give them the power to take whatever actions they deem necessary. I very much doubt that lenders would need to be consulted about any such actions. Furthermore it is obviously in their own financial interest to continue to work on this for as long as possible. My personal view, based upon the very limited information available to me, is that I would prefer a firm appointed by the FCA to be best placed to look after my interests as an investor. Admittedly it may cost a lot more, but that is a price worth paying to ensure the situation is fully investigated in a professional and objective manner. That raises the question of should my personal view be considered by the court? Unlikely, but if so by what method should I make myself heard? Sure I could contact the FCA, but I'm not sure how effective that would be or even if my contact would reach the desk of the correct person before the court date. Lenders on this forum have, rightly or wrongly, been urged to email RR offering their support for them to continue. Any emails that do find their way into court will surely present an unbalanced view of lenders opinions. Lenders have not been asked for their views in any official manner and nor should they be.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 31, 2018 10:08:55 GMT
The lenders? Whilst an offer to buy 100% of the loan book would be wonderful news, are we really expected to believe and trust in this? Offers can and do vanish at any time. I would have thought it more likely that another authorised firm could take over the running of the loan book. This would only return 100% to lenders if the loans were successfully repaid or refinanced. I suspect it means to "buy" the book from COL - the borrower/lender relationship and outstanding charges. So our ongoing investments would be part of what's "bought". COL get a (nominal) payment, the purchaser gets the ongoing loans to manage, we get a change in the management layer between us and the lender. And, yes, we get back what comes back from the lender in exactly the same way.
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mason
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Post by mason on Mar 31, 2018 10:16:52 GMT
All speculation but here is my scenario of how it could end up; <snip> 6. Col is viable business but the directors cant operate it. Directors will seek compensation on transfer and lost personal income for duration of administration. It may be that the new operator pays them a declining amount from COL portion of income running down until loans complete or some other deal. Another consideration is that if FCA had somehow allowed COL to continue instead of administration to allow them to comply they would likely have been hit with a significant fine possibly to sink the business. This point would be considered when in regard what the directors get out of this situation Do you really think the directors could get anything more out of the business? As it's questionable whether they acted in the best interest of lenders or creditors, I'd have thought rather than taking more money out of the business they might have personal liability to make up any shortfall in funds (i.e. before costs are taken from investors capital and/or interest).
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Mar 31, 2018 10:25:46 GMT
All speculation but here is my scenario of how it could end up; <snip> 6. Col is viable business but the directors cant operate it. Directors will seek compensation on transfer and lost personal income for duration of administration. It may be that the new operator pays them a declining amount from COL portion of income running down until loans complete or some other deal. Another consideration is that if FCA had somehow allowed COL to continue instead of administration to allow them to comply they would likely have been hit with a significant fine possibly to sink the business. This point would be considered when in regard what the directors get out of this situation Do you really think the directors could get anything more out of the business? As it's questionable whether they acted in the best interest of lenders or creditors, I'd have thought rather than taking more money out of the business they might have personal liability to make up any shortfall in funds (i.e. before costs are taken from investors capital and/or interest). That they would, should or could is debatable. That they will try, probably needs less thinking about.
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micky
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Post by micky on Mar 31, 2018 10:28:41 GMT
Sarah did warn us pages 10-11 on March 1st-
sarahcount
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Mar 1, 2018 at 9:06am elliottm, sqh, and 5 more like this QuotePost Options Post by sarahcount on Mar 1, 2018 at 9:06am
Small world. I've had dealings with the Administrator Mr G***** C**** before.
Choosing my words very carefully but let's just say that he is very well aware of;
1) The fact that he has been appointed by the directors and not anyone else
2) Exactly what actions he can take without falling foul of insolvency law or his regulator the ICAEW.
Administrators in general have enormous power and it is extremely difficult to successfully challenge their actions or decisions.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Mar 31, 2018 10:42:31 GMT
My personal view, based upon the very limited information available to me, is that I would prefer a firm appointed by the FCA to be best placed to look after my interests as an investor. Admittedly it may cost a lot more, but that is a price worth paying to ensure the situation is fully investigated in a professional and objective manner. I agree. An IP willing to leak this report at all, and for that report to then be laden with unverifiable delicious carrots coupled with rumour of painful financial sticks, aimed squarely at us, makes me very concerned about the interests that are being served and the professionalism of those serving them. An IP acting professionally IMV, would have released a short statement (directly, not via stubs!) to the effect that their position as administrators is being challenged and that they or newly appointed administrators will update us once the case is resolved - and that's it. I rather suspect that the leak may have the opposite effect that was hoped for. I'd imagine the FCA are absolutely fuming about it. I don't see how this could possibly add to their case as being the right outfit for the job.
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mason
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Post by mason on Mar 31, 2018 11:07:09 GMT
I rather suspect that the leak may have the opposite effect that was hoped for. I'd imagine the FCA are absolutely fuming about it. I don't see how this could possibly add to their case as being the right outfit for the job. It seems to me to be extremely unlikely that the FCA will not get its way. An administrator that does not have the support of the FCA has its hands tied and that will not serve any party. What I find very strange is the invitation to email the current administrator to register your objection, the implication being this could be presented in court? No lender is in possession of enough information to take a view as to which is the better outcome for them - all we have is speculation and the contents of a leaked document. Is it really the case that the existing administrator intends to use lender sentiment as part of its defence?
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