james100
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Post by james100 on Oct 15, 2018 12:48:48 GMT
there's also cheap money from the loan companies at the personal,credit card & mortgage level but the P2P loans in SME tend to be companies that banks for one reason or another will not lend to at a high rate so not sure i would see it as safer Yes, by definition they are sufficiently unorthodox to disqualify themselves from "standard" finance...I see all self-select p2p loans as roughly equivalent to unlisted corp junk bonds.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Oct 15, 2018 13:01:11 GMT
I guess we will have to agree to disagree In my view, the stock market is bloated by cheap money and the bear market is belatedly on its way. Then stocks may become a true and worthwhile investment again. What stock market? without qualification it's like referring to the housing market....London versus Sunderland versus the depths of Alaska (for example) really have rather different profiles to consider...there are a couple of dogs in the FTSE 100 which I'd dare to suggest represent stunningly good value at present. Globally. I dont think any major market will escape unscathed. US/UK/EU/EM Of course this is indices - stock picking aside. Dogs that appear to be good value are usually anything but.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Oct 15, 2018 13:44:40 GMT
Couldn’t agree more. 95% of my investments are in a highly diversified range of active and passive funds, some I’ve held for 20+ years. I don’t try to time the market and I stay invested for the long term.
My P2P portfolio is just an interesting sideline, as much a hobby as anything (although still lucrative over the last 5 years).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 16:21:53 GMT
If you feel S&S are safer then why on earth would you invest in a 'riskier' p2p product with more risk but capped upside?? Why not simply take the safer product/stocks with unlimited upside? Like others I retain 95% in what I consider trad S&S type investments across a wide range of markets and currencies, though I expect to earn considerably more than 12% year on year with the money invested. I've only let P2P drift into <5% of my "pot" partially for diversification, partially to take advantage of low income tax rates (compared to capital gains) and partially for fun.
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aju
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Post by aju on Oct 15, 2018 17:33:14 GMT
If you feel S&S are safer then why on earth would you invest in a 'riskier' p2p product with more risk but capped upside?? Why not simply take the safer product/stocks with unlimited upside? Like others I retain 95% in what I consider trad S&S type investments across a wide range of markets and currencies, though I expect to earn considerably more than 12% year on year with the money invested. I've only let P2P drift into <5% of my "pot" partially for diversification, partially to take advantage of low income tax rates (compared to capital gains) and partially for fun. i'm sure you are not saying this but are you 95% in S&S and 5% in P2p is that of all your money for want of a better term. I always thought it was better to have some cash savings and some rainy day cash as well as day to day spending etc... I'm sure there are other asset classes or you are grouping them different to I understand. Just curious as I probably have way too much in p2p and shares but nothing like your spreads if I've understood it correctly. That said i'm probably a lot more risk averse than most people but that's just me I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 17:53:02 GMT
yes I consider cash and PIBS to be trad investments. No, I don't consider cash generates capital gains or income. So 95% covers shares, funds, indexes, cash, PIBS, Trusts etc. Given the terrible tax rates on capital gains and income in this country I maximise income and gains to at least ensure that I hit the lowest level of those taxes and so take advantage of the tax free space. Other asset movements are to lock in gains where assets top out.
P2P is fun, but it will not make anyone rich.
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dandy
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Post by dandy on Oct 15, 2018 20:27:25 GMT
In my view, the stock market is bloated by cheap money and the bear market is belatedly on its way. Then stocks may become a true and worthwhile investment again. i know you don’t care much for my perspective on matters, but i would say two things: first you need to increase your horizons to the medium/long-term level. short-term greed (because that is regrettably what you describe) is the fast way to get yourself badly burnt. that is why 99% of people fail in other speculative areas of finance such as junk bonds, CFDs and spread betting. and that is why p2p should be considered no more than just another tool for those who enjoy a bit of speculation “on the side”. second, the facts speak for themselves. for example, on my screen right now, ahead of an upcoming annual meeting, i’m reviewing a portfolio originally established is the 1960s. 85% equities, 12% ig bonds, 3% cash. medium risk, no speculation. current value 5m and yields 3.5%. the portfolio is extremely low turnover and remained invested through every bear market you care to name (indeed, a fair number of the holdings have been held since inception). i don’t know about you, but i prefer to sleep at night and enjoy my holidays. i structure my investments accordingly and merely dabble in speculation in moments of madness. chasing high single digit (or even worse, double-digit) annualised returns is an extremely high risk activity that many p2p speculators will sooner or later learn the hard way is not sustainable. I agree that the stock market has generally always been a good long term investment and I never said it wasn't. Your reference to short term greed has confused me - perhaps you could clarify exactly what I said that promotes short term greed? Actually, believe it or not, I also never said I chase any particular yields. As far as P2P goes I don't go anywhere near self select and stick to automated platforms generating me between 4-7%. So maybe your comments were aimed at someone else ... ?! AND ... past performance is no guarantee of future performance. The stock market has changed FOREVER since 2008 and is priced to monetary policy more than underlying value. 3% rates in US will inevitably see an unstoppable wave on bankruptcies and shortly after rates will be back down to 0, or negative. c. 90% of my investments are in property and I sleep perfectly well with that and c.10% is in p2p.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 15, 2018 20:38:52 GMT
Who knows?
Equities will always be my favourite and I believe that most people in the wealth accumulation stage should have the bulk of their investments in equities.
Vanguard all world is my ETF of choice, and is all I hold in my ISA, SIPP, and untax sheltered accounts.
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aju
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Post by aju on Oct 15, 2018 22:56:24 GMT
@wallstreet, no probs I'm glad to have your perspective if i'm honest.
Truthfully I am just a dabbler in your "professional world" as you put it, well me and Mrs aju both are. I've not worked for living for over 11 years and still not quite SP retired as such. I have my own methods of keeping my head above water so to speak - I use that term very loosely of course as nothing is ever as safe as N&SI. I was fortunate enough in my working life to have what I thought was a good job with one of those so called gold plated pensions add a few inheritances later and a large pension lump sum we have a bit to keep us going for the rest of our mortal time so to speak and then some. keeping the inflation tax at bay as much as we can is a major part of our madness.
I do have quite a bit of skin in the p2p game but still only in Zopa - don't all larf/scoff at once - for me it's about finding a pattern and managing that pattern - I worry about people who sell too quickly when for me p2p in Zopa is really about playing the long game. In that approach I have only ever withdrawn £1 when I first set up my access in 2006 to test the incoming and withdrawal payments. I only ever lend at £10 blocks to keep it way better than zopa standard 1% diversification. This one does seem to be paying off but there's probably another couple of years left to be certain.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Oct 15, 2018 23:00:13 GMT
I always thought it was better to have some cash savings and some rainy day cash as well as day to day spending etc i know the above statement was not targeted at me, but i thought i ought to offer a perspective. in the “professional” world, the word “cash” is distinct from “savings” ”savings” is what you say, a “rainy day” fund left in a bank account (*not* a money market fund or other “cash-like equivalent” !) the typical recommendation for “savings” is a *minimum* of one year’s salary in order to give you sufficient breathing space for pretty much any imaginable Force Majeure that may require you to have some financial breathing space. the amount of interest you are paid ins irrelevant, you just want to park it in the most boring safest place(s) you can find (e.g ns&i) ”day to day spending cash” is typically referred to as “disposable income”, which is what it says on the tin, spare cash you can “dispose” of as you wish without impacting your more important financial commitments such as mortgage payments because it is normally calculated net of critical commitments. ”cash” meanwhile, is spoken of in the context of a portfolio. and in that context, there is an oft-forgotten saying “cash *is* a position”. you can maintain a cash position in a portfolio for any number of reasons, for example maybe you are feeling in a risk-off mood, or matybe you’re waiting for a buying opportunity, or maybe you are keeping investment income aside to pay for this term’s school fees due next month .... typically the numbers are between 5-15%, running at less than 5% is rare because even on an agressive high-risk growth portfolio you always want a bit of cash on hand to take advantage of an unexpected opportunity Nice thought but miles away from reality link
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macq
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Post by macq on Oct 16, 2018 7:15:07 GMT
a bigger worry for us in P2P might be how many people as per that link who are living beyond there limit and are in debt have borrowed from the likes of RS,LW,Zopa etc. as well as traditional lenders.
But one thing does occur about this thread as it started out as P2P v Stocks.But as seen by the article mentioned and already discussed here no investment (not savings) Funds,P2P,Housing etc come without risk but at least we are trying which is more then some can do
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 7:38:46 GMT
I always thought it was better to have some cash savings and some rainy day cash as well as day to day spending etc i know the above statement was not targeted at me, but i thought i ought to offer a perspective. in the “professional” world, the word “cash” is distinct from “savings” ”savings” is what you say, a “rainy day” fund left in a bank account (*not* a money market fund or other “cash-like equivalent” !) the typical recommendation for “savings” is a *minimum* of one year’s salary in order to give you sufficient breathing space for pretty much any imaginable Force Majeure that may require you to have some financial breathing space. the amount of interest you are paid ins irrelevant, you just want to park it in the most boring safest place(s) you can find (e.g ns&i) ”day to day spending cash” is typically referred to as “disposable income”, which is what it says on the tin, spare cash you can “dispose” of as you wish without impacting your more important financial commitments such as mortgage payments because it is normally calculated net of critical commitments. ”cash” meanwhile, is spoken of in the context of a portfolio. and in that context, there is an oft-forgotten saying “cash *is* a position”. you can maintain a cash position in a portfolio for any number of reasons, for example maybe you are feeling in a risk-off mood, or matybe you’re waiting for a buying opportunity, or maybe you are keeping investment income aside to pay for this term’s school fees due next month .... typically the numbers are between 5-15%, running at less than 5% is rare because even on an agressive high-risk growth portfolio you always want a bit of cash on hand to take advantage of an unexpected opportunity The danger of this approach is that you end up with that concept of, a jar for the rent, a jar for food, a jar for holidays, a jar for pension. So the cat starves to death because her jar is empty while the rent jar is overflowing.
I think there was a film about this ;-)
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aju
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Post by aju on Oct 16, 2018 9:02:07 GMT
Nice thought but miles away from reality link if if people don’t have the willpower to not live beyond their means and instead squander their earnings on booze, fags and Netflix subscriptions then that is not my problem. i realise there are some who are in genuine poverty through no fault of their own, but for the majority in the Western world it’s just a case of going back to the old-school of not living beyond your means. We still have a "spend only what you can afford to spend mentality" from when we were starting out on life's journey. In the latter part of the 80's, whilst we were not poor by any means, we had just moved house and in 87 everything fell off a cliff, we had 2 children just at school , i'd just moved from technical work with all the overtime I could handle and moved into a salaried management grade and had to travel back and forth from Cambridge to the big Smoke (london). Whilst times were tough for while with mortgage rates shooting from 7% region to 14/15% we had enough room to take in foreign students for while but it was tough sometimes. All that said we survived and as a result of tough times we learned how to cut back and how to find a bargain and we still do it all now even though one could argue we have no need to, I think it's ingrained into us. There was no MSE or other sites that help either, there was no moving power companies etc, that all came later. To be honest times were tough but we were in no way anywhere near some of the people who literally had nothing and there always seem to be a lot more of them now too. It always seems that things are getting worse rather than better for those at the bottom of life's hill. I'm guessing with all this brexit turmoil things are going to get a lot worse for an awful lot of people pretty fast, although I have my fingers crossed it will not be that bad. Edit: forgot to add we had a credit card for years that had more than £8000 on it, as soon as I took the first kings shilling back in 2007 I paid that off straightaway - I still have credit cards but they work for me now rather than for them - without that windfall so to speak though I may still have had that burdon. I nearly lost my shirt on the icelandic banks topple fiasco of 2007/8. Fortunately we were covered in the end but I did sweat buckets for days having stoozed a loan at the time to fund the icelandic bank interest return !!! Those were the days ;-)
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Oct 16, 2018 10:23:41 GMT
if if people don’t have the willpower to not live beyond their means and instead squander their earnings on booze, fags and Netflix subscriptions then that is not my problem. i realise there are some who are in genuine poverty through no fault of their own, but for the majority in the Western world it’s just a case of going back to the old-school of not living beyond your means. To be honest times were tough but we were in no way anywhere near some of the people who literally had nothing and there always seem to be a lot more of them now too. One of the problems these days is that 'poverty' is measured relative to median salary, e.g. if you're below 60% of median salary you're considered to be in poverty. Stupid definition imo, because you could given everybody literally £1m/yr pay increase and it would make no difference to the number in poverty.
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aju
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Post by aju on Oct 16, 2018 10:37:32 GMT
The ironic thing now is that my company pension, another 2 years SP if they don't move it again, is way less than median salary (27300 according to ONS 2017 figures) but above the 60% slot by quite a way too. My outgoings are way less than most people anyway as I don't pay anyone to house me anymore and that is one of the biggest things in my favour I feel.
My biggest outlay these days is council tax but hey if you live in rural Wiltshire and have a half decent property what can one expect...
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