registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2019 11:25:50 GMT
Perhaps, but I suspect if you worry that the ERG is overly influencing things, you may consider that the direction of travel is turning to right.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 11:26:51 GMT
I'm wondering whether TM will offer them the same bung the DUP got. What was it, £200m per MP? I suspect that if The Telegraph had crowdfunded it, they could have raised £ms to get those three (and many more) out of the Tory party.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 11:29:03 GMT
Perhaps, but I suspect if you worry that the ERG is overly influencing things, you may consider that the direction of travel is turning to right. I don't follow the "it's all the fault of the ERG" line often followed by the media. What do they have, 40 MPs? If May's deal was attractive there are 240+ Labour MPs she could pitch to.
Regardless of ERG numbers, can anybody name any current Tory policy that could be classified as right-wing?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 11:54:48 GMT
Perhaps, but I suspect if you worry that the ERG is overly influencing things, you may consider that the direction of travel is turning to right. I don't follow the "it's all the fault of the ERG" line often followed by the media. What do they have, 40 MPs? If May's deal was attractive there are 240+ Labour MPs she could pitch to.
Regardless of ERG numbers, can anybody name any current Tory policy that could be classified as right-wing?
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Feb 20, 2019 12:07:30 GMT
Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen wrote a joint letter to Theresa May to confirm their departure."
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I was about to break out the champagne when I realised that at least for the short term probably we will be seeing even more of the dreadful Anna Soubry. Broxtowe had a massive turnout in 2016 and voted Leave 54.6% to Remain 45.4%, having voted to implement Article 50 Ms Soubry has done everything that she can to overturn the will of her constituents.
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Post by dan1 on Feb 20, 2019 12:37:54 GMT
I don't follow the "it's all the fault of the ERG" line often followed by the media. What do they have, 40 MPs? If May's deal was attractive there are 240+ Labour MPs she could pitch to.
Regardless of ERG numbers, can anybody name any current Tory policy that could be classified as right-wing?
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options I class those as far-right.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 12:40:04 GMT
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options I class those as far-right. No-deal Brexit clearly isn't the preferred Brexit option of the Tory party, as they've just spent 2 years faffing around with the current deal and suppressing work on no-deal.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Feb 20, 2019 13:05:42 GMT
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options I class those as far-right. It seems to me that degree of membership of, or conformance with, the EU does not correlate closely with UK political party affiliations. For example, Jeremy Corbyn is a lifetime EU hater and Ken Clarke is a diehard EU luvvie.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 20, 2019 13:30:18 GMT
A nice bit of writing from Mark D'Arcy of the BBC, regarding the House at PMQs today:
Well that was a bit bizarre.
PMQs today had the air of a middle class dinner party where everyone was trying to pretend that some gargantuan social faux pas had not occurred. All eleven members of the new Independent Group – eight ex-Labour MPs and three ex-Conservatives were gathered at their new roosting point, behind the SNP and the Lib Dems, and alongside the DUP – but their presence remained unremarked, until a parenthetical reference from the Lib Dem, Tom Brake.
No-one snarled. No-one cooed. A few MPs actually ventured over for a friendly word.
The SNP’s Pete Wishart joked with Anna Soubry, Labour’s Barry Sheerman actually edged onto the SNP benches to say something amicable to Sarah Wollaston. Plaid’s Westminster Leader Liz Saville Roberts paid a friendly social call. You half expected someone to bring a basket of muffins.
Meanwhile, across the chamber, Conservative ex-ministers Nicki Morgan and Philip Lee stood in what had been the Remainer 'naughty corner' and fixed an unreadable stare on their departed colleagues. Dr Lee, who today insisted that, despite his uber-Remain views on Brexit, he was not leaving the Conservative Party, chatted earnestly with Remainer minister Stephen Hammond, with party colleagues throwing curious glances in his direction.
The actual questions seemed almost secondary to the theatre attendant on the birth process for what may soon be a full-dress new party. There were Brexit questions, questions about anti-Semitism and constituency questions – but the only time the word “defection” was uttered was in the context of a Labour councillor in Brighton who’d switched to the Tories.
Oddly, the Indy Group themselves made no attempt to intervene, watching, chatting and consulting social media. I can see why the main parties didn’t wish to big them up with some direct attack – but the motive behind their silence is harder to fathom.
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 20, 2019 13:36:41 GMT
I don't follow the "it's all the fault of the ERG" line often followed by the media. What do they have, 40 MPs? If May's deal was attractive there are 240+ Labour MPs she could pitch to.
Regardless of ERG numbers, can anybody name any current Tory policy that could be classified as right-wing?
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options I'd be interested to know what your definition of a 'hard Brexit' actually is. I thought it meant leaving the EU (you know, the thing 17m people voted for). I don't recall my ballot paper providing any options that could 'soften' my vote one way or the other, so hard is presumably the default. Heaven forbid the ERG and others would try to get through Parliament precisely what the majority of the electorate voted for - how extremist.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 13:51:46 GMT
Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen wrote a joint letter to Theresa May to confirm their departure."
----
I was about to break out the champagne when I realised that at least for the short term probably we will be seeing even more of the dreadful Anna Soubry. Broxtowe had a massive turnout in 2016 and voted Leave 54.6% to Remain 45.4%, having voted to implement Article 50 Ms Soubry has done everything that she can to overturn the will of her constituents. I don't think the is evidence that a majority of her constituents voted for a no-deal Brexit, or even a TM Hard Brexit. But I'd be happy to see a referendum to test it to get clarity on the matter.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 13:52:48 GMT
I class those as far-right. No-deal Brexit clearly isn't the preferred Brexit option of the Tory party, as they've just spent 2 years faffing around with the current deal and suppressing work on no-deal. Well they have only presented two options, which are the two I mentioned. TM has been clear it's her deal or no deal.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 13:54:18 GMT
I class those as far-right. It seems to me that degree of membership of, or conformance with, the EU does not correlate closely with UK political party affiliations. For example, Jeremy Corbyn is a lifetime EU hater and Ken Clarke is a diehard EU luvvie. True - but the Q was about party policies, not individuals. Labour's is soft Brexit or (perhaps) referendum. Tories' is Hard Brexit or no-deal Brexit. Clear difference.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 14:02:30 GMT
Hard Brexit and No-deal Brexit as their current preferred Brexit options I'd be interested to know what your definition of a 'hard Brexit' actually is. I thought it meant leaving the EU (you know, the thing 17m people voted for). I don't recall my ballot paper providing any options that could 'soften' my vote one way or the other, so hard is presumably the default. Heaven forbid the ERG and others would try to get through Parliament precisely what the majority of the electorate voted for - how extremist. Hard Brexit means leaving Customs Union and Single Market. Soft Brexit means remaining in one or both. Both Hard and Soft Brexit mean leaving the EU. It is a discredit to Cameron and UK democracy that we had a vote without a published plan or agreement on what leaving meant in practice, when it is stating the breathtakingly obvious that there is not just one way of leaving the EU. And I am glad you seem to know what the majority voted for - perhaps you can tell us how you know when it seems quite clear that some people were voting for a Norwegian type solution, some for the "easiest deal in human history", and some for this ERG no deal Brexit (which was notable by its absence in the majority of the Leave campaign).
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 20, 2019 14:22:17 GMT
I'd be interested to know what your definition of a 'hard Brexit' actually is. I thought it meant leaving the EU (you know, the thing 17m people voted for). I don't recall my ballot paper providing any options that could 'soften' my vote one way or the other, so hard is presumably the default. Heaven forbid the ERG and others would try to get through Parliament precisely what the majority of the electorate voted for - how extremist. Hard Brexit means leaving Customs Union and Single Market. Soft Brexit means remaining in one or both. Both Hard and Soft Brexit mean leaving the EU. It is a discredit to Cameron and UK democracy that we had a vote without a published plan or agreement on what leaving meant in practice, when it is stating the breathtakingly obvious that there is not just one way of leaving the EU. And I am glad you seem to know what the majority voted for - perhaps you can tell us how you know when it seems quite clear that some people were voting for a Norwegian type solution, some for the "easiest deal in human history", and some for this ERG no deal Brexit (which was notable by its absence in the majority of the Leave campaign). But you are applying shades of grey to what was a completely binary question. The question was simply leave or remain. There was no option for leaving with conditions, remain and reform, negotiate a new deal etc. so the only logical assumption can be that leave meant leave (in full) in the same way that remain meant remain (in full). Do you think that if remain had won, the PM would now be negotiating a new deal relating to our continued membership because some people who voted to remain actually wanted out of the single market? I suspect the status quo would prevail. I agree that the referendum was a very blunt instrument, but nobody voted for a deal, and any sensible person who had wanted to stay in a customs union and/or single market voted to remain. Do you actually know anyone who wanted to remain in either arrangement yet still voted to leave?! I'm afraid it's an illogical argument deployed by those on the losing side.
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