IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 14:32:22 GMT
Hard Brexit means leaving Customs Union and Single Market. Soft Brexit means remaining in one or both. Both Hard and Soft Brexit mean leaving the EU. It is a discredit to Cameron and UK democracy that we had a vote without a published plan or agreement on what leaving meant in practice, when it is stating the breathtakingly obvious that there is not just one way of leaving the EU. And I am glad you seem to know what the majority voted for - perhaps you can tell us how you know when it seems quite clear that some people were voting for a Norwegian type solution, some for the "easiest deal in human history", and some for this ERG no deal Brexit (which was notable by its absence in the majority of the Leave campaign). But you are applying shades of grey to what was a completely binary question. The question was simply leave or remain. There was no option for leaving with conditions, remain and reform, negotiate a new deal etc. so the only logical assumption can be that leave meant leave (in full) in the same way that remain meant remain (in full). Do you think that if remain had won, the PM would now be negotiating a new deal relating to our continued membership because some people who voted to remain actually wanted out of the single market? I suspect the status quo would prevail. I agree that the referendum was a very blunt instrument, but nobody voted for a deal, and any sensible person who had wanted to stay in a customs union and/or single market voted to remain. Do you actually know anyone who wanted to remain in either arrangement yet still voted to leave?! I'm afraid it's an illogical argument deployed by those on the losing side. The Leave voters I know are aghast at what has transpired. And they didn't vote for a cliff edge crashout Brexit. And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc.
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xtab
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Post by xtab on Feb 20, 2019 14:38:51 GMT
. Do you actually know anyone who wanted to remain in either arrangement yet still voted to leave?! I'm afraid it's an illogical argument deployed by those on the losing side. Incredibly, I do. A friend of mine confessed that he thought we should remain, but also wanted to flag up his unhappiness with the EU. So, as he was so sure the Remain vote would win, he voted Leave. Now, there's an illogical argument for you!
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 20, 2019 14:43:07 GMT
But you are applying shades of grey to what was a completely binary question. The question was simply leave or remain. There was no option for leaving with conditions, remain and reform, negotiate a new deal etc. so the only logical assumption can be that leave meant leave (in full) in the same way that remain meant remain (in full). Do you think that if remain had won, the PM would now be negotiating a new deal relating to our continued membership because some people who voted to remain actually wanted out of the single market? I suspect the status quo would prevail. I agree that the referendum was a very blunt instrument, but nobody voted for a deal, and any sensible person who had wanted to stay in a customs union and/or single market voted to remain. Do you actually know anyone who wanted to remain in either arrangement yet still voted to leave?! I'm afraid it's an illogical argument deployed by those on the losing side. The Leave voters I know are aghast at what has transpired. And they didn't vote for a cliff edge crashout Brexit. And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc. "cliff edge crashout Brexit" - this is like a game of remainer bingo. I think voters on both sides are aghast at what has transpired - an utterly terrible negotiation. But that doesn't take away from the fact that to vote leave meant there was always a risk of leaving without a deal - I was comfortable with that. And to vote remain meant there was no similar risk. Any leaver who now complains that they wanted to leave some bits and not other bits and that what is happening isn't fair really needed to do more research at the time.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 14:50:53 GMT
And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc. Do you think the majority of Remainers want to be in the Euro, in Schengen, ever closer union etc. (i.e. be a full member of the EU)?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 16:36:40 GMT
The Leave voters I know are aghast at what has transpired. And they didn't vote for a cliff edge crashout Brexit. And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc. "cliff edge crashout Brexit" - this is like a game of remainer bingo. I think voters on both sides are aghast at what has transpired - an utterly terrible negotiation. But that doesn't take away from the fact that to vote leave meant there was always a risk of leaving without a deal - I was comfortable with that. And to vote remain meant there was no similar risk. Any leaver who now complains that they wanted to leave some bits and not other bits and that what is happening isn't fair really needed to do more research at the time.Dunno - given its such a huge change and hasn't been as easy as predicted I'd ask them again now that it's all much clearer without the need to do extensive research rather than listen to the campaign before them. If they are all as happy as you are leaving with no deal then fine by me.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 16:40:14 GMT
And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc. Do you think the majority of Remainers want to be in the Euro, in Schengen, ever closer union etc. (i.e. be a full member of the EU)? No. But then I don't think there's a majority for a no deal Brexit either. I think there would be a majority for the EU deal we had (if people were asked now) or for a soft Brexit. I don't think there's a majority for a no deal brexit, a hard brexit (TM's red lines) or full EU membership with Euro, Shengen etc. But unless we ask again we will never know.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 16:50:00 GMT
Do you think the majority of Remainers want to be in the Euro, in Schengen, ever closer union etc. (i.e. be a full member of the EU)? But unless we ask again we will never know. Keeping trying, one day people might be for it
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 16:52:24 GMT
The Leave voters I know are aghast at what has transpired. And they didn't vote for a cliff edge crashout Brexit. And yes, I think the Leave voters had a lot of say in our EU policy over the years - Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, opt out from ever closer union, etc. "cliff edge crashout Brexit" - this is like a game of remainer bingo. I think voters on both sides are aghast at what has transpired - an utterly terrible negotiation. But that doesn't take away from the fact that to vote leave meant there was always a risk of leaving without a deal - I was comfortable with that. And to vote remain meant there was no similar risk. Any leaver who now complains that they wanted to leave some bits and not other bits and that what is happening isn't fair really needed to do more research at the time. A comment which is a way to avoid the underlying issue. I suppose it will be a nice smooth no deal Brexit with few noticeable ramifications? Fortunately, barring massive political miscalculation (which is not impossible) we aren't leaving with no deal on 29th March, because the government knows it would never be forgiven.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 20, 2019 16:53:02 GMT
But unless we ask again we will never know. Keeping trying, one day people might for it Wait and see. Common sense usually prevails.
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 20, 2019 17:11:00 GMT
"cliff edge crashout Brexit" - this is like a game of remainer bingo. I think voters on both sides are aghast at what has transpired - an utterly terrible negotiation. But that doesn't take away from the fact that to vote leave meant there was always a risk of leaving without a deal - I was comfortable with that. And to vote remain meant there was no similar risk. Any leaver who now complains that they wanted to leave some bits and not other bits and that what is happening isn't fair really needed to do more research at the time.Dunno - given its such a huge change and hasn't been as easy as predicted I'd ask them again now that it's all much clearer without the need to do extensive research rather than listen to the campaign before them. If they are all as happy as you are leaving with no deal then fine by me. I'd be more than happy with another vote just as soon as the result of the first one has been properly and fully implemented. Any sooner would be completely undemocratic. What next, re-running general elections before a government has been formed because less than half the electorate didn't like the outcome?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2019 17:14:21 GMT
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Feb 20, 2019 17:16:05 GMT
Most of the noise is pointless posturing, in my opinion May/Robbins have never had any intention of leaving without a deal, the clear objective is BRINO with a deal that appears to honour the 2016 vote but really is designed to enable frictionless re-entry to the EU round about 2021.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Feb 20, 2019 17:26:34 GMT
Dunno - given its such a huge change and hasn't been as easy as predicted I'd ask them again now that it's all much clearer without the need to do extensive research rather than listen to the campaign before them. If they are all as happy as you are leaving with no deal then fine by me. I'd be more than happy with another vote just as soon as the result of the first one has been properly and fully implemented. Any sooner would be completely undemocratic. What next, re-running general elections before a government has been formed because less than half the electorate didn't like the outcome? The Leave campaign promised A B and C and won the referendum. The government has been unable to negotiate a deal delivering the Leave campaign's promises (as varied, conflicting and muddied as they were). Given the failure to deliver the promised outcome it would seem rational to check-in with the voters to see if they still want to go ahead. Appears reasonable to me. Imagine I pitched you a loan offering security at 65% LTV. You happily invest only to discover it's actually 65% LTGDV. Worse, planning permission is yet to be finalised despite assurances that this would be in place by drawdown. In this scenario, wouldn't you like the opportunity to reconsider your investment decision?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2019 17:34:46 GMT
I'd be more than happy with another vote just as soon as the result of the first one has been properly and fully implemented. Any sooner would be completely undemocratic. What next, re-running general elections before a government has been formed because less than half the electorate didn't like the outcome? The Leave campaign promised A B and C and won the referendum. The government has been unable to negotiate a deal delivering the Leave campaign's promises (as varied, conflicting and muddied as they were). Given the failure to deliver the promised outcome it would seem rational to check-in with the voters to see if they still want to go ahead. Appears reasonable to me. I'd have some (small) sympathy for that view if I thought May had been trying to deliver Brexit, but I don't as per previous comment by Steerpike.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Feb 20, 2019 17:40:19 GMT
The Government spent over £9m of taxpayers' money creating and distributing leaflets to every household strongly urging voters to choose to remain in the EU.
"Losing our full access to the EU’s Single Market would make exporting to Europe harder and increase costs.
Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption.
The EU referendum is a once in a generation decision. The Government believes it is in you and your family’s best interests that the UK remains in the European Union."
Nevertheless many that do not like the result of the referendum keep insisting that those that voted leave did not understand that there were likely to be consequences of trying to escape.
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