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Post by martin44 on Mar 12, 2019 22:08:12 GMT
On a personal note, i must admit after watching the whole debate and vote today, i am very disappointed the deal was voted down, although not unexpected, the reason i comment on a personal note, is my son has his interior design company which imports (Fairly) extensively from Germany, sales for the first 2 and a bit months of 2019 are down 60% on the same period for 2018... the uncertainty is without doubt having a negative effect, if not a very serious negative effect, today was a chance IMO to bring some calm and a certain amount of economic recovery.... Where we go now is anyone's guess, but i must say i sincerely hope there is no second referendum... unfortunately i cant see any other outcome.
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Post by mrclondon on Mar 12, 2019 22:08:35 GMT
An incredible lack of Tory MP's in the house this afternoon for the brexit debate - led by May / Corbyn. A debate that is the precursor to the most important vote thus far in this parliament, and they can't be bothered to listen to the arguments in person.
Ironically, the Brexit saga was created by Tory PM aiming to sort out his internal Tory issues. He failed, did a runner, other Tories took over, didn't achieve anything. Now everyone is panicking - people should think carefully what kind of politicians they are electing.An interesting point, especially given the distortions created by candidates being parachuted into constituencies by party central offices.
I did vaguely ponder myself at one point whether to put myself forward for one of the main parties, but was disuaded to do so by my lack of political involvement prior to that point. (Probably no great surprise to regular forum readers that my involvement at Uni was with the Industrial Society rather than any politically affliated group).
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Post by mrclondon on Mar 12, 2019 22:19:01 GMT
martin44 - just to satisfy my own (professional) curiosity - you mentioned your son's circumstances, but the way you phrased it was slight ambiguous. My reading of it was the main point was uncertainty of events has damaged sales. But you also mentioned importing from Germany ... and am left wondering what the implication of this part was. Why is that an issue? Is there any non-EU supplier that could be used instead of the German supplier if the German supplier becomes too expensive ? And if so what is the barrier to using them today ? (I assume quality ?? If so is working with a non-EU supplier to improve their quality an option? )
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Mar 12, 2019 22:24:49 GMT
Ok Jeremy you get your GE. What is in your manifesto? Brexit must happen as you voted for it by triggering article 50 and country voted for it. or second bite at the cherry with second referendum. What is the question all deals and no deal have been rejected so what do you ask ? Then you have to get the votes from those you betrayed by asking for a second referendum. Promising free housing, education cheap trains and a job for everyone (Labour have never reduced unemployment while in office) might get a few extra votes from people not old enough to remember the last few distastetous labour governments. Force an extension with EU extorting millions each weak as a condition of them giving such an extension. The country would love you for that. The companies you want to tax to the hilt to pay for your fantasy world will have left leaving the poor middle class workers to pick up the tax bill for you to give freebies to the lazy and feckless freeloading brainwashed momentum thugs. Other views are available
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Post by beepbeepimajeep on Mar 12, 2019 22:25:32 GMT
I did vaguely ponder myself at one point whether to put myself forward for one of the main parties Please do try this mrc, I listen to you (as in read your posts) and respect what you say a lot more than I do most politicians.
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Post by martin44 on Mar 12, 2019 22:49:36 GMT
martin44 - just to satisfy my own (professional) curiosity - you mentioned your son's circumstances, but the way you phrased it was slight ambiguous. My reading of it was the main point was uncertainty of events has damaged sales. But you also mentioned importing from Germany ... and am left wondering what the implication of this part was. Why is that an issue? Is there any non-EU supplier that could be used instead of the German supplier if the German supplier becomes too expensive ? And if so what is the barrier to using them today ? (I assume quality ?? If so is working with a non-EU supplier to improve their quality an option? ) Yes.. without doubt the situation around brexit has IMO caused the slump in sales, the implication of importing from Germany would initially appear to be of no consequence and simply a statement of his uk/eu trade, however the (now lower) majority of his business is being born out of sales of his own similarly comparative uk traditional manufacturing, which is a clear move away from the more modern and contemporary German products.....the quality of the German products he uses are not readily available in the UK, (or should i say they are readily available, but the quality is substandard) hence the importing. Is this a Brexit effect? probably a debatable point, but it certainly feels Brexit. I would also like to add that we are in a leave constituency, although i'm not sure this is of any consequence.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 22:53:24 GMT
As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus (Norway, Common Market 2.0 or similar) for the good of a split country. An FTA could then have been negotiated from a position of strength if that was the aim specifically endorsed in some way by the electorate. Instead she played party politics, put party and tribalism above the country, interpreted the result as a mandate for Hard Brexit in a manner guaranteed to alienate half the country and is paying the price. Actually, we're all paying the price. It was made clear by both sides in the referendum that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the customs union and the single market and to end the free movement of people.Both Labour and the Conservatives included all three of these things in their manifestos for the 2017 general election and received 80% of the vote. For a PM and government to then go against all that would be a pretty blatant disrespect of the democratic choice of the people of this country in my view - and I say all that having voted remain and would do so again. The withdrawal agreement is not some sort of hard Brexit. It keeps us in the customs union until the actual future terms are agreed. I think it is extremely disingenous of Labour to be voting against it. No it wasn't
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 22:55:23 GMT
As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus (Norway, Common Market 2.0 or similar) for the good of a split country. An FTA could then have been negotiated from a position of strength if that was the aim specifically endorsed in some way by the electorate. Instead she played party politics, put party and tribalism above the country, interpreted the result as a mandate for Hard Brexit in a manner guaranteed to alienate half the country and is paying the price. Actually, we're all paying the price. It was made clear by both sides in the referendum that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the customs union and the single market and to end the free movement of people. Both Labour and the Conservatives included all three of these things in their manifestos for the 2017 general election and received 80% of the vote. For a PM and government to then go against all that would be a pretty blatant disrespect of the democratic choice of the people of this country in my view - and I say all that having voted remain and would do so again. The withdrawal agreement is not some sort of hard Brexit. It keeps us in the customs union until the actual future terms are agreed. I think it is extremely disingenous of Labour to be voting against it. Yes it is (read with the accompanying political declaration). TM has said all along that the aim is to leave the SM and CU (i.e. Hard Brexit). The backstop (which no one wants) is staying in the CU.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 23:00:03 GMT
As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus (Norway, Common Market 2.0 or similar) for the good of a split country. An FTA could then have been negotiated from a position of strength if that was the aim specifically endorsed in some way by the electorate. Instead she played party politics, put party and tribalism above the country, interpreted the result as a mandate for Hard Brexit in a manner guaranteed to alienate half the country and is paying the price. Actually, we're all paying the price. It was made clear by both sides in the referendum that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the customs union and the single market and to end the free movement of people. Both Labour and the Conservatives included all three of these things in their manifestos for the 2017 general election and received 80% of the vote. For a PM and government to then go against all that would be a pretty blatant disrespect of the democratic choice of the people of this country in my view - and I say all that having voted remain and would do so again. The withdrawal agreement is not some sort of hard Brexit. It keeps us in the customs union until the actual future terms are agreed. I think it is extremely disingenous of Labour to be voting against it. The problem is that what the people chose and what the manifestos promised are simply undeliverable. People can democratically choose all sorts of undeliverable things, but it doesn't make them deliverable.
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Post by martin44 on Mar 12, 2019 23:15:53 GMT
It was made clear by both sides in the referendum that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the customs union and the single market and to end the free movement of people. Both Labour and the Conservatives included all three of these things in their manifestos for the 2017 general election and received 80% of the vote. For a PM and government to then go against all that would be a pretty blatant disrespect of the democratic choice of the people of this country in my view - and I say all that having voted remain and would do so again. The withdrawal agreement is not some sort of hard Brexit. It keeps us in the customs union until the actual future terms are agreed. I think it is extremely disingenous of Labour to be voting against it. The problem is that what the people chose and what the manifestos promised are simply undeliverable. People can democratically choose all sorts of undeliverable things, but it doesn't make them deliverable. Well, this is not only what the people chose, it was what they were offered, despite what the Tory or labour manifesto stated , what was voted for was not UN-deliverable, it was a clear deliverable choice.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 23:23:59 GMT
The problem is that what the people chose and what the manifestos promised are simply undeliverable. People can democratically choose all sorts of undeliverable things, but it doesn't make them deliverable. Well, this is not only what the people chose, it was what they were offered, despite what the Tory or labour manifesto stated , what was voted for was not UN-deliverable, it was a clear deliverable choice. Indeed - they were offered the undeliverable too. Our politicians have been utterly useless on all sides, before, during and after the referendum.
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Post by martin44 on Mar 12, 2019 23:33:46 GMT
Well, this is not only what the people chose, it was what they were offered, despite what the Tory or labour manifesto stated , what was voted for was not UN-deliverable, it was a clear deliverable choice. Indeed - they were offered the undeliverable too. Our politicians have been utterly useless on all sides, before, during and after the referendum. Sorry but.. they were not offered the undeliverable, and i disagree that the politicians have been useless, the position of the labour party is of no consequence should the Tory and DUP parties come to an agreeable consensus ... i will admit this looks unlikely at the moment, but the ball is in the Tory/DUP court.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 23:44:31 GMT
Indeed - they were offered the undeliverable too. Our politicians have been utterly useless on all sides, before, during and after the referendum. Sorry but.. they were not offered the undeliverable, and i disagree that the politicians have been useless, the position of the labour party is of no consequence should the Tory and DUP parties come to an agreeable consensus ... i will admit this looks unlikely at the moment, but the ball is in the Tory/DUP court. Sure, and I disagree that it is possible to deliver "the exact same benefits" as being in the EU (Brexit secretary #1), or that the Good Friday agreement (which all parties agreed to) is compatible with any feasible border solution after leaving the CU/SM, or that "there will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" (Brexit secretary #1 again), or that we would not be required to pay huge sums to the EU, or that "the free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history" (Fox), or that we would have 30 trade deals settled the moment we left (Fox again), or - I could go on, but it won't change anyone's mind. I just think what was offered was undeliverable and that what has proved to be deliverable is very far from what people were led to believe was possible.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 12, 2019 23:52:53 GMT
The problem that will sink Theresa May is that both stay and leave factions in the Commons think if they kill her bill, they have a chance of getting all that they want. This is entirely her fault for playing both sides. I've had enough of her and I think the empty benches behind her speak loudly. As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus How is this achieved, when it is blatantly obvious that no consensus exists?
For me there are 2 groups of villans in this piece:
- MP's of all parties - they voted by a majority of nearly 400 to leave the EU, but over the following 2 years have been unable to agree on what form of leave they want
- The EU and their lack of a leave deal - there is no such thing as a leave deal. The only thing the EU will agree to is either a leave deal that entails remaining in the customs union (not realy leave at all), or a leave deal that results in us being in the indidious back stop potentially for ever.
And as an aside,what is the point of a new referendum or a GE?
- General election - this will just return the same MP's with the same views and the same stalemate
- Second referendum - I don't think that views have changed greatly, and I think the results of a second referendum would be as close as the first one. If remain narrowly wins the second referendum there will be 17m very unhappy punters. If leave win again we are back to square one.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 12, 2019 23:59:43 GMT
I am depressed having watched Newsnight, by the simply bizarre ideas presented by the politicians interviewed in response to the defeat of the May Deal. Nadim Zadharwi for the Cons said that what was needed was to return to Brussels, and ask for a better deal. With 16 days to go. Barry Gardner for the Labours team said that the Eu had smiled benevolently when they went and presented their customs union proposal, so they should go be allowed to go and ask for that. Nicky Morgan offered some similar muffled trumpet idea. Jesus Christ, what kind of bubble are they living in? Their choices are black and white and Maitliss tried to get them to answer what they would actually endorse faced with the options available, and they just made mealy noises.
This is the parliament wed apparently want to "take back control". I wouldn't trust them to call me a taxi. It is ridiculous and reporting to you from Belgium, I can tell you that people are just laughing their heads off.
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