Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 1,687
|
Post by Steerpike on Mar 12, 2019 13:06:52 GMT
I really don't understand what Theresa May is doing. Is it really that important to 'save face' on her deal that she tries to trick her way through parliament by pretending it's been fixed when the AG advises otherwise?
If she'd changed tack and given a few speeches promoting no deal even if she didn't mean it she could have scared the EU into at least offering a deal that wasn't a total surrender.
Save face, sure but 'save job' is the real truth. Looked at from her perspective, it is a matter of how she will go down in history, a failure or a determined persevering leader. Maybe Geoffrey Cox will be the PM next week! Is it right that the governing party can change leaders without a general election, if the men in grey suits leave the revolver on TM's desk? Agreed, this is an ex-deal. The EU rationale for a delay is that the EU does not want the UK to leave, ergo it will of course be permitted thereby providing time for Mrs Wrecking Balls to organise a full blown withdrawal...of article 50.
|
|
|
Post by beepbeepimajeep on Mar 12, 2019 13:12:50 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on Mar 12, 2019 15:24:46 GMT
An incredible lack of Tory MP's in the house this afternoon for the brexit debate - led by May / Corbyn. A debate that is the precursor to the most important vote thus far in this parliament, and they can't be bothered to listen to the arguments in person.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Mar 12, 2019 17:05:22 GMT
An incredible lack of Tory MP's in the house this afternoon for the brexit debate - led by May / Corbyn. A debate that is the precursor to the most important vote thus far in this parliament, and they can't be bothered to listen to the arguments in person.
Conservative Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg is asked by the BBC's Simon McCoy why he thinks there are so many empty seats behind the PM in the House of Commons today, "on what is one of the most important days in our recent history".
Mr Rees-Mogg replies: "I think because we've had so many days that have been billed as being the most important day in our recent history.
"I think there's a degree of disgruntlement about the theatricality around it and that it would have been better to have a more deliberative approach, and possibility the vote and the motion tomorrow allowing people to consider the details today."
He adds: "I think a lot of people would have been in offices with cold towels wrapped around their heads looking at the legal opinion and looking through the texts, rather than being in the chamber."
About the only thing Jacob Fin-tim-lin-bin-bus-stop-Olé-Silver-Spoon-Biscuitbarrel-Rees-Mogg has said that I can have some empathy with.
|
|
|
Post by captainconfident on Mar 12, 2019 17:34:43 GMT
The problem that will sink Theresa May is that both stay and leave factions in the Commons think if they kill her bill, they have a chance of getting all that they want. This is entirely her fault for playing both sides.
I've had enough of her and I think the empty benches behind her speak loudly.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 2,893
|
Post by michaelc on Mar 12, 2019 18:30:27 GMT
About the only thing Jacob Fin-tim-lin-bin-bus-stop-Olé-Silver-Spoon-Biscuitbarrel-Rees-Mogg has said that I can have some empathy with.
Ahh, do you mean (soon to be Sir) Jacob Rees-Mogg, the finest politician currently sitting in the house of commons ?
|
|
IFISAcava
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,683
Likes: 3,008
|
Post by IFISAcava on Mar 12, 2019 19:15:57 GMT
The problem that will sink Theresa May is that both stay and leave factions in the Commons think if they kill her bill, they have a chance of getting all that they want. This is entirely her fault for playing both sides. I've had enough of her and I think the empty benches behind her speak loudly. As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus (Norway, Common Market 2.0 or similar) for the good of a split country. An FTA could then have been negotiated from a position of strength if that was the aim specifically endorsed in some way by the electorate. Instead she played party politics, put party and tribalism above the country, interpreted the result as a mandate for Hard Brexit in a manner guaranteed to alienate half the country and is paying the price. Actually, we're all paying the price.
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Mar 12, 2019 20:21:28 GMT
The problem that will sink Theresa May is that both stay and leave factions in the Commons think if they kill her bill, they have a chance of getting all that they want. This is entirely her fault for playing both sides. I've had enough of her and I think the empty benches behind her speak loudly. As I said a long time ago, a good leader would have found a post-referendum consensus (Norway, Common Market 2.0 or similar) for the good of a split country. An FTA could then have been negotiated from a position of strength if that was the aim specifically endorsed in some way by the electorate. Instead she played party politics, put party and tribalism above the country, interpreted the result as a mandate for Hard Brexit in a manner guaranteed to alienate half the country and is paying the price. Actually, we're all paying the price. It was made clear by both sides in the referendum that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the customs union and the single market and to end the free movement of people. Both Labour and the Conservatives included all three of these things in their manifestos for the 2017 general election and received 80% of the vote. For a PM and government to then go against all that would be a pretty blatant disrespect of the democratic choice of the people of this country in my view - and I say all that having voted remain and would do so again. The withdrawal agreement is not some sort of hard Brexit. It keeps us in the customs union until the actual future terms are agreed. I think it is extremely disingenous of Labour to be voting against it.
|
|
travolta
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 1,191
|
Post by travolta on Mar 12, 2019 20:44:49 GMT
OK tentative yay at this car crash result . How many MPs are going to vote against no deal exit when their constituents will dump them at the next election? Extension vote and then wipe out at the European Parliament Election in May ? Baby steps all round . When's' Brexit' the Movie' coming out? Who is your choice of director?
|
|
|
Post by charlata on Mar 12, 2019 20:49:59 GMT
The problem that will sink Theresa May is that both stay and leave factions in the Commons think if they kill her bill, they have a chance of getting all that they want. This is entirely her fault for playing both sides. I've had enough of her and I think the empty benches behind her speak loudly. I see it differently. TM's deal approximates to leaving the single market whilst staying in the customs union. Half the country gets half of what they want, and the other half, half of what they want. It's a compromise. At the time of the referendum, immigration was more important to the public than free trade deals, so leaving the single market whilst staying in the CU is a compromise which respects the vote. After 3 years of each side doing it's level best to antagonise the other, not many people are in a mood to compromise. TM is caught in the cross-fire.
The ERG want WTO. They know that with under a 100 votes they have no hope of WTO via parliament. The public didn't vote for WTO in 2016 and they won't vote for it in 2019. The democratic options are blocked. This evening, the ERG voted to frustrate Brexit in the hope of fomenting violence. Butch is already sharpening his pitch fork. Dangerous times.
|
|
|
Post by dan1 on Mar 12, 2019 20:54:13 GMT
OK tentative yay at this car crash result . How many MPs are going to vote against no deal exit when their constituents will dump them at the next election? Extension vote and then wipe out at the European Parliament Election in May ? Baby steps all round . When's' Brexit' the Movie' coming out? Who is your choice of director?Werner Herzog
|
|
travolta
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 1,191
|
Post by travolta on Mar 12, 2019 21:03:29 GMT
I feel that you have been subject to flawed reports if you feel that leavers were more concerned about immigration than self determination . Also blandly describing the result (of a huge turn out) constitutes one half of the country . Compare the result of Tony Blairs' landslide' victory of a paltry 32% turnout of voters and you will get a better perspective on what you a dealing with. Please note that this majority result is still unacceptable to those who control 82% of media outlets and is airbrushed by editors.
|
|
travolta
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 1,191
|
Post by travolta on Mar 12, 2019 21:06:37 GMT
OK tentative yay at this car crash result . How many MPs are going to vote against no deal exit when their constituents will dump them at the next election? Extension vote and then wipe out at the European Parliament Election in May ? Baby steps all round . When's' Brexit' the Movie' coming out? Who is your choice of director?Werner Herzog Just as long as long as no one says leni riefenstahl
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on Mar 12, 2019 21:42:09 GMT
The public didn't vote for WTO in 2016 and they won't vote for it in 2019. That is really getting into a level of technical detail that is beneath the committment at the referendum and in the 2017 labour / Tory manifestos to leave the CU. WTO followed by a FTA with EU (and other major trading partners) is one route to achieve this, a 21 month transition period of SM+CU then FTA with EU (and other major trading partners) is another. Both routes have risks associated with them, and our over cautious / remain leaning MP's will (probably) by this time tomorrow have indicated they won't countenance the risks of either option. I don't understand Labour's position re the CU given their 2017 manifesto commitments (and their desires for a more interventist approach regarding state aid). The HoC might well have majority support for EEA+CU as a route forward at this point, but that would be contrary to 2017 manifesto commitments and (similiar to the 2nd ref option or simply revoking art 50) would in my view need a GE as a precursor to legislation to implement. (Otherwise the Queen gets put in an impossible policised position which will not be allowed to happen under any circumstances) Whilst a GE right now wouldn't be helpful IMO, it would be fascinating to read the labour and tory 2019 manifestos. Tomorrow will shed some light on the Tory strategic thinking with the routine spring statement, and then some details on the WTO tariff schedule and the implications on the Irish border if no deal.
|
|
|
Post by df on Mar 12, 2019 21:52:40 GMT
An incredible lack of Tory MP's in the house this afternoon for the brexit debate - led by May / Corbyn. A debate that is the precursor to the most important vote thus far in this parliament, and they can't be bothered to listen to the arguments in person.
Ironically, the Brexit saga was created by Tory PM aiming to sort out his internal Tory issues. He failed, did a runner, other Tories took over, didn't achieve anything. Now everyone is panicking - people should think carefully what kind of politicians they are electing.
|
|