|
|
Post by ablrate on Jul 20, 2022 14:03:50 GMT
The clean up is a good thing for lenders. The balance sheet being cleaned up will be better when the look to refi us out. All of the companies have a chattels mortgage on equipment in favour of our lenders so when a sub is sold lenders will get the cash because they can't sell those assets without our permission and our chattels being removed. So the £1 is to make a contract valid, any sales of assets are required to be paid to lenders. Not following. You say that all of the companies have a chattels mortgages on equipment in favour of lenders. That included O*** D*** Ltd, but it was sold for a peppercorn so the chattels on all of their assets had to be released and no funds were returned to lenders. Did ABL give permission to sell under these terms? Not so. The company was sold for £1 and the chattels remains on the assets. When the assets are sold the proceeds will be returned to lender. There is a different between selling the company and selling the assets.
|
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Jul 20, 2022 15:11:44 GMT
Not following. You say that all of the companies have a chattels mortgages on equipment in favour of lenders. That included O*** D*** Ltd, but it was sold for a peppercorn so the chattels on all of their assets had to be released and no funds were returned to lenders. Did ABL give permission to sell under these terms? Not so. The company was sold for £1 and the chattels remains on the assets. When the assets are sold the proceeds will be returned to lender. There is a different between selling the company and selling the assets. That may raise more questions than it has answered. Are you saying all that has been sold is the trading name and goodwill in exchange for all debt? Does the chattels include a freehold building in a prime location and a range of hi tech machinery for producing bespoke doors? Who gets the paperclips from the office, I have been looking for one all day?
|
|
TitoPuente
Member of DD Central
Posts: 624 
Likes: 655
|
Post by TitoPuente on Jul 20, 2022 16:13:16 GMT
Still not clear.
A charge needs to have a corresponding loan to which it is its collateral (In most cases?)
The company (O*** D*** Ltd) has been sold to an individual (G*** A*** B***).
The last accounts posted in CH are for December 2019, so 2020 accounts are almost two years overdue. According to these 2019 accounts, there appear to be a corporate loan (“Amounts due to group companies”) of £259k owed to V*** I*** plc vs. the charges of £248k plus debenture. Was this corporate loan novated to ABL (which is the beneficiary of the charges) or is the company still owing to V*** I*** plc?
|
|
|
|
Post by ablrate on Jul 21, 2022 10:46:51 GMT
That £259k is not a loan. Despite the accounts saying the details are in note 20, they are actually in note 15. That shows that the £259k is owed as follows 21k to the plc, 233k to T*** Ra****m Ltd & 5k to IVI M*******s Ltd and that these balances were incurred as a result of transactions in the ordinary course of business with the plc and other subsidiaries of the plc Note 12 mentions a loan of £25k that was repaid on behalf of the company after the year end by the parent plc. Despite the Ablrate charge being registered in that year, the finance costs line on the accounts shows - Without delving into the details of the management accounts of the whole group, who knows where the interest costs of the loan secured on the company's assets were booked to / paid(!?) from But here are my three questions for DBW / ablrate Which specific company / companies is / are responsible for the loan now that the plc has sold the shares of O*** D****s Ltd? Where physically are the assets listed on the asset schedule in the charge against O*** D***s Ltd? When will lenders see a quid? - V****n are still responsible for the full loan and interest as it was V****n who took the loan. Where physically are the assets listed on the asset schedule in the charge against O*** D***s Ltd?- In a storage facility When will lenders see a quid?- When the assets/business are sold the funds will be passed to lenders. Please remember this is just one of the assets lists for security. For DBW, why would the new owner of the company not be compelled to start making the repayments as per the terms of the loan? Is the only prospect lenders have of getting a penny dependent on the assets being sold? Surely that is no good? They are depreciating assets. How about the interest? As Village Idiot says, there are questions!The loan was not made to the subsidiary it was made to the parent. This is just one of the assets sets securing the loan, it was sold in order to release the balance sheet of the debt and the subsequent sale of the assets release cash to lenders for outstanding interest and capital. The liability is still with the parent. As their balance sheet improves from removing debt, reducing our loan and purchasing businesses with a positive balance sheet, the company will be in a position to access its traditional banking lenders to refi our lenders. The alternative is that as other companies come into the group it doesn't make sense for the group to have a debenture over Topco so those companies coming into the group have an incentive to refi us or settle.
|
|
brush
Member of DD Central
Posts: 174
Likes: 154
|
Post by brush on Jul 21, 2022 11:56:19 GMT
Good to see lenders questions being answered on this forum again.
|
|
TitoPuente
Member of DD Central
Posts: 624
Likes: 655
|
Post by TitoPuente on Jul 21, 2022 12:04:35 GMT
Where physically are the assets listed on the asset schedule in the charge against O*** D***s Ltd?- In a storage facility We have to assume that the company was left with other machinery (non charged) in order to function. Otherwise the new owner of O*** D***s Lts bought just a shell. Are all these assets in storage for sale? Would the proceeds go directly to pay interests and reduce ABL principal or will they go to "general working capital"?
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,337
Likes: 11,562
|
Post by ilmoro on Jul 21, 2022 17:23:59 GMT
Thank you for the answers ablrate, appreciated. I'm watching to see how the companies house records change to reflect the position you describe. Currently there is no doubt that companies house shows the charge as being registered to O*** D***s Ltd. The charge document (that DBW signed for Ablrate) on 16 Apr 2019 is between O*** D***s Ltd and Ablrate Assets Ltd. Nowhere in that document is the parent plc mentioned, the borrower is very specifcally O*** D***s Ltd. I have it on my screen right now & if the forum rules allowed, I'd be happy to post it... but interested readers can see it with these steps Go to find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/ Enter the company name in the search box and select it from the list presented Click on the charges tab Click on the Charge Code 0818******03 Click on the View PDF Pages 2, 3, 8 and 9 are of most interest Based on that filed document, please post up your thoughts. If anyone can explain how the former parent plc has anything to do with it, I'm interested. I don't know if the forum allows me to send screen shots of the relevant pages to anyone, but if anyone wants me to try, send me a message & I will give it a go Won't be the first time Ablrate security docs on paper don't seem be as expected or logical.
|
|
travolta
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,507
Likes: 1,215
|
Post by travolta on Aug 4, 2022 20:12:03 GMT
'.... are prioritising the servicing of the Ablrate loans and maintain a regular dialog with Ablrate. Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August. V***** has a pipeline of acquisition opportunities which will both strengthen the security backing for the loans but also enhance the opportunity to refinance the facilities. Disposals to date have focussed on stemming cash outflows and Ablrate, as charge holders, continue to ensure that lenders are not disadvantaged.'
See email today.
'dialogue'
|
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Aug 4, 2022 20:23:44 GMT
'.... are prioritising the servicing of the Ablrate loans and maintain a regular dialog with Ablrate. Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August. V***** has a pipeline of acquisition opportunities which will both strengthen the security backing for the loans but also enhance the opportunity to refinance the facilities. Disposals to date have focussed on stemming cash outflows and Ablrate, as charge holders, continue to ensure that lenders are not disadvantaged.' See email today. 'dialogue' Not sure what the 'end of August' equates to in Ablrate months, but, getting these up to date and paying regularly would be a big step in the right direction.
|
|
|
|
Post by captainconfident on Aug 4, 2022 20:52:50 GMT
'.... are prioritising the servicing of the Ablrate loans and maintain a regular dialog with Ablrate. Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August. V***** has a pipeline of acquisition opportunities which will both strengthen the security backing for the loans but also enhance the opportunity to refinance the facilities. Disposals to date have focussed on stemming cash outflows and Ablrate, as charge holders, continue to ensure that lenders are not disadvantaged.' See email today. 'dialogue' Not sure what the 'end of August' equates to in Ablrate months, but, getting these up to date and paying regularly would be a big step in the right direction. I know it's 'live long and prosper', but how long do I need to live in order for that?
|
|
dh1
Member of DD Central
Posts: 409
Likes: 463
|
Post by dh1 on Aug 5, 2022 5:56:12 GMT
Yes - I do wish that we could get round to unambiguous, clearly factual communication containing real commitments which are in fact met.
"... Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August ..." is imprecise (to put it kindly);
what lenders (well, certainly this one) want to hear is something like:
"All the interest due on the loan will be in lenders accounts by 31st August 2022; the borrower has re-committed to paying all future interest on time and will repay the whole loan either on or before maturity on 16th April 2023. There will be no extension of the loan and no interest capitalisation. Plans to recover the loan amount are in place and complete; they will be implemented on 17th April 2023 in the absence of repayment or sooner if any interest payment is missed, delayed or underpaid for whatever reason."
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Aug 5, 2022 11:16:23 GMT
Yes - I do wish that we could get round to unambiguous, clearly factual communication containing real commitments which are in fact met.
"... Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August ..." is imprecise (to put it kindly);
what lenders (well, certainly this one) want to hear is something like:
"All the interest due on the loan will be in lenders accounts by 31st August 2022; the borrower has re-committed to paying all future interest on time and will repay the whole loan either on or before maturity on 16th April 2023. There will be no extension of the loan and no interest capitalisation. Plans to recover the loan amount are in place and complete; they will be implemented on 17th April 2023 in the absence of repayment or sooner if any interest payment is missed, delayed or underpaid for whatever reason." Yes, I had taken that as the natural consequence of running down the loan book and returning capital. An extension of a loan would be continuing the business of lending, which would be inconsistent with the current mode that Abl has entered. Default and recovery must be the normal practice going forward. Lenders may claim tax losses. Deviation from that might be authorised by the lenders on a loan, rather like Assetz do, but not something that Abl should be deciding unilaterally, imo. Having said that, I am not on this loan. I sold at a large discount at the start of COVID.
|
|
blueblazer
Member of DD Central
Posts: 61
Likes: 35
|
Post by blueblazer on Aug 8, 2022 11:02:12 GMT
'.... are prioritising the servicing of the Ablrate loans and maintain a regular dialog with Ablrate. Interest arrears are expected to be covered by the end of August. V***** has a pipeline of acquisition opportunities which will both strengthen the security backing for the loans but also enhance the opportunity to refinance the facilities. Disposals to date have focussed on stemming cash outflows and Ablrate, as charge holders, continue to ensure that lenders are not disadvantaged.' See email today. 'dialogue' It doesn't say which August!!! However, this group have made attempts in the past to pay their debt.
We also live in hope that one of the ABL positive statements will actually happen.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,337
Likes: 11,562
|
Post by ilmoro on Aug 9, 2022 21:16:18 GMT
I notice that the buyer of the door company from V****n has, on 2 August, taken another company from the Group. I** M*******s Ltd It also has an Ablrate charge against it. I wonder when V****n will announce this disposal More details in the DD board... They havent announced it to the markets yet and its still part of the group on the website. Took about 10 days for the previous sale to be formally announced and Abl wont do anything until the markets are told. My money on this one going for a quid as well as it probably comes with more debt than the Doors and HMRC arrears.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Aug 9, 2022 21:42:35 GMT
I notice that the buyer of the door company from V****n has, on 2 August, taken another company from the Group. I** M*******s Ltd It also has an Ablrate charge against it. I wonder when V****n will announce this disposal More details in the DD board... They havent announced it to the markets yet and its still part of the group on the website. Took about 10 days for the previous sale to be formally announced and Abl wont do anything until the markets are told. My money on this one going for a quid as well as it probably comes with more debt than the Doors and HMRC arrears. In that case, let's hope they can find another 150,000 companies to sell off at a quid apiece so that they can get the outstanding interest back up to date!
|
|
