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Post by martin44 on Aug 19, 2019 19:44:43 GMT
You know it's not that Patrick Moore, right?  He'd already been dead three years at the date of that speech. So who is the "Global Warming Policy Foundation", whom this other Patrick Moore was speaking on behalf of? It's Nigel Lawson's climate-change-denial lobbying body. You've linked to their annual keynote preach to the choir.  your usual dismissive post.... not a lot to add to the conversation there.. again. 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 19, 2019 19:45:20 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 19, 2019 19:47:27 GMT
your usual dismissive post.... not a lot to add to the conversation there.. again. "Dismissive"? Damn right I'm dismissive of Nigel Lawson's denial of reality. And so should anybody sensible be.
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Post by martin44 on Aug 19, 2019 19:48:25 GMT
i particularly liked this one "The Gulf Stream is weakening, and Europe could expect a prolonged cold spell as the world warms" 
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 19, 2019 19:50:22 GMT
I'm genuinely trying very hard not to sound patronising here, but... You do know what the gulf stream is, and the role it plays in Northern European climate, right? www.youtube.com/watch?v=NthIpxsxvjI |
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Post by martin44 on Aug 19, 2019 19:56:14 GMT
I'm genuinely trying very hard not to sound patronising here, but... You do know what the gulf stream is, and the role it plays in Northern European climate, right? www.youtube.com/watch?v=NthIpxsxvjIIs it at all possible for you to enter into any kind of reasoned debate without attempting to belittle your co-respondent... i think not... good evening.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 19, 2019 20:08:45 GMT
You do know what the gulf stream is, It's a little river that runs down the side of the 6th fairway
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 19, 2019 20:12:36 GMT
You do know what the gulf stream is, It's a little river that runs down the side of the 6th fairway Just kidding
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 19, 2019 21:07:35 GMT
I'm genuinely trying very hard not to sound patronising here, but... You do know what the gulf stream is, and the role it plays in Northern European climate, right? www.youtube.com/watch?v=NthIpxsxvjIIs it at all possible for you to enter into any kind of reasoned debate without attempting to belittle your co-respondent... i think not... good evening. Yes, of course it is. But given that you posted guff from arch-deniers as if it was some kind of sensible contribution, then sneered at a fairly basic concept as if it was some kind of ridiculousness, then...
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Post by martin44 on Aug 19, 2019 21:11:41 GMT
Is it at all possible for you to enter into any kind of reasoned debate without attempting to belittle your co-respondent... i think not... good evening. Yes, of course it is. But given that you posted guff from arch-deniers as if it was some kind of sensible contribution, then sneered at a fairly basic concept as if it was some kind of ridiculousness, then... Oh.. its you again. There are other threads you might like to annoy.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Aug 20, 2019 8:26:05 GMT
i particularly liked this one "The Gulf Stream is weakening, and Europe could expect a prolonged cold spell as the world warms" I don't understand why you find so many of adrianc 's points laughably ridiculous, nor do you ever put forward your reasoning to be discussed. Human activity has caused global average temperatures to rise at an unprecedented rate (see previously posted xkcd comic). This temperature rise affects weather systems around the world and leads to 'extreme' weather events increasing in frequency. This can present locally in a variety of ways from hotter summers to colder winters, but usually with a warming trend. The melting of the ice sheets is thought to be weakening the gulf stream. The gulf stream transfers hot air from Mexico to Western Europe. As a result, its weakening will bring less hot air to Europe from Mexico, this may or may not somewhat offset generally warmer air temperatures in Europe. However, it will most definitely lead to hotter temperatures in the gulf of Mexico as hot air moves away more slowly. No one claims to fully understand humanity's impact on weather patterns, there are too many interconnected mechanisms and systems that we don't fully understand. However, that global temperatures are rising at a rate never before seen is not up for debate and human activity is the only variable that explains it. It's easy to point out where climate science has been wrong in the past, climate scientists do it all the time, but just because we don't fully understand something doesn't mean we should entirely disregard what we do understand. If you get a few questions wrong in an exam, does that mean your entire knowledge and understanding of the subject should be ignored/laughed at? Of course not.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 20, 2019 9:14:37 GMT
However, that global temperatures are rising at a rate never before seen is not up for debate and that human activity is the only variable that explains it. If only that were true - however, with the likes of Nigel Lawson involved, there certainly is "debate", albeit irrational and almost certainly backed by substantial vested interests.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Aug 20, 2019 9:25:21 GMT
However, that global temperatures are rising at a rate never before seen is not up for debate and that human activity is the only variable that explains it. If only that were true - however, with the likes of Nigel Lawson involved, there certainly is "debate", albeit irrational and almost certainly backed by substantial vested interests. According to his book summary: " Although Lawson accepts that warming is real, he questions the validity of global climate models." Well that's something at least , he's possibly closer to our position than Martin's, although I'd struggle to classify Martin's position as anything other than 100% denial.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 12:16:50 GMT
The trouble deniers have in the argument is that they believe, they believe they are right and as much evidence as you offer them it will not satisfy them. If you believe the earth is flat or the earth is only 5000 years old you believe and evidence is just a test of faith.
Changing you position on this suggests that, in the past, you were wrong. It takes a strong person to accept that. All I now suggest to all such people is go do a MOOC on climate change and let education change your views.
When I used to run change programmes we knew 25% of the staff would buy into whatever we suggested and 25% would reject whatever we said. So we just focused on the core 50%. Those with open minds who are prepared to learn. I recommend it to you.
Pushing has no value. Letting people be educated in the subject has fantastic value.
Trust me the Daily Mail and Lawson are not sources of education.
I note with interest that studies show that while a denier struggles to make a step towards accepting the truth, good quality arguments in social media will influence waverers and others reading the thread. So it is vital to make a good case even to strong deniers.
So yes climates have always changed but not at this unprecedented rate and not because of the actions of man to this extent. Human action far exceeds volcanic action on the climate at the moment. Employment opportunities within most green deals far exceeds coal mining and processing employment opportunities and in far safer conditions. Oil does have a place in a modern industry but as raw material for some lubricants and medical materials but not wasted by chucking on a fire.
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Post by martin44 on Aug 21, 2019 21:31:18 GMT
i particularly liked this one "The Gulf Stream is weakening, and Europe could expect a prolonged cold spell as the world warms" I don't understand why you find so many of adrianc 's points laughably ridiculous, nor do you ever put forward your reasoning to be discussed. Human activity has caused global average temperatures to rise at an unprecedented rate (see previously posted xkcd comic). This temperature rise affects weather systems around the world and leads to 'extreme' weather events increasing in frequency. This can present locally in a variety of ways from hotter summers to colder winters, but usually with a warming trend. The melting of the ice sheets is thought to be weakening the gulf stream. The gulf stream transfers hot air from Mexico to Western Europe. As a result, its weakening will bring less hot air to Europe from Mexico, this may or may not somewhat offset generally warmer air temperatures in Europe. However, it will most definitely lead to hotter temperatures in the gulf of Mexico as hot air moves away more slowly. No one claims to fully understand humanity's impact on weather patterns, there are too many interconnected mechanisms and systems that we don't fully understand. However, that global temperatures are rising at a rate never before seen is not up for debate and human activity is the only variable that explains it. It's easy to point out where climate science has been wrong in the past, climate scientists do it all the time, but just because we don't fully understand something doesn't mean we should entirely disregard what we do understand. If you get a few questions wrong in an exam, does that mean your entire knowledge and understanding of the subject should be ignored/laughed at? Of course not. Then it will be interesting to see whether our attempts at C02 reduction will cause any opposite effect, i agree with your sentiment that climate change is a fact, however i simply cannot agree that "Human activity has caused global average temperatures to rise at an unprecedented rate" as bobo says, anyone with a differing opinion is a flat earth believer.
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your usual dismissive post.... not a lot to add to the conversation there.. again. 
