michaelc
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Post by michaelc on May 30, 2023 14:06:07 GMT
Just done some sums, probably wrong but happy to be corrected. Piston weights of 17 million metric tonnes have been proposed, im rounding up to 18 million it makes the maths simpler. So if we allow the piston to fall 1 m in 1 hr and we ignore all losses the output could be 50mw. That's not a lot in the order of uk energy use. Seems we need truly huge weight lifted a long way to provide days of large energy storage. The challenge appears bigger than I thought. I like the idea but is that because I don't need to be a chemist to understand it and even if I was potential energy is surely more intuitive than battery storage but does that make it "better" ?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on May 30, 2023 14:36:46 GMT
Just done some sums, probably wrong but happy to be corrected. Piston weights of 17 million metric tonnes have been proposed, im rounding up to 18 million it makes the maths simpler. So if we allow the piston to fall 1 m in 1 hr and we ignore all losses the output could be 50mw. That's not a lot in the order of uk energy use. Seems we need truly huge weight lifted a long way to provide days of large energy storage. The challenge appears bigger than I thought. This is a table off the link I gave (copied and pasted so comes out garbaged), slightly repaired but columns not aligned. (edit: actually looks better than I expected) Storage capacity with different sizes
Usable Capacity [GWh] 1,0 3,0 8,0 Number of people supplied for 24 h* 250.000 750.000 2 Mill Diameter [m] 150 200 250 Volume of water [1000m3] 1,340 2,380 5,990 Pressure [bar] 41 67 71
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 18:07:39 GMT
Good programme on R4 today in regards to heat pumps... They had on a guy who was an engineer and teacher with regards to these heat pumps... heat pumps in new build? he says its the future.
NOW. Heat pumps in existing housing stock. His words not mine... "impossible due to financial cost's and constraints, including archaic planning regulations"
Heres an example... cost to prep a house for the viability of a heat pump installation ~£4000...mainly around insulating the property to a standard where there is vertually no heat loss. loft. glazing. draught seals. walls. conservatories (yes..millions of em)
Then the cost of the heat pump, the installation, and the long term viable running of the heat pump which would need solar panels to offset the electricity cost..... this blew my mind... £30,000.00..... 15k for the heat pump.... solar panels 10k.. and alterations internally to radiators, hot water supply and pipework 5k.. is this plus vat?
Which is clearly not achievable for the vast majority of working people... is there an alternative? ... yes there is.. we have to retain the use of gas and oil and all the benefits we get from it for at least the forseeable future...
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 18:20:19 GMT
you have basically sent me a link that says climate change is linked to the sun... which i must say i fully agree with. I'm assuming you're referring to the one adrianc posted, in which case - Yes, over very very long times the earth's orbit or angle can affect the climate (we are talking along the lines of ice ages here). Additionally as mentioned before, asteroids can smash into it, tectonic plates can slip, mass fires can erupt, aliens can invade, all of which will have either a very long timeframe or an observable reason as to its cause. I asked you what changed heliocentrically in the last 150 years to explain the temperature rise.sun spots.... An increased number of sunspots causes an increase in Earth's temperature.... or is it cars?.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on May 30, 2023 18:20:24 GMT
Good programme on R4 today in regards to heat pumps... They had on a guy who was an engineer and teacher with regards to these heat pumps... heat pumps in new build? he says its the future. NOW. Heat pumps in existing housing stock. His words not mine... "impossible due to financial cost's and constraints, including archaic planning regulations" Heres an example... cost to prep a house for the viability of a heat pump installation ~£4000...mainly around insulating the property to a standard where there is vertually no heat loss. loft. glazing. draught seals. walls. conservatories (yes..millions of em) Then the cost of the heat pump, the installation, and the long term viable running of the heat pump which would need solar panels to offset the electricity cost..... this blew my mind... £30,000.00..... 15k for the heat pump.... solar panels 10k.. and alterations internally to radiators, hot water supply and pipework 5k.. is this plus vat? Which is clearly not achievable for the vast majority of working people... is there an alternative? ... yes there is.. we have to retain the use of gas and oil and all the benefits we get from it for at least the forseeable future... Another alternative I'm considering is to install wall mounted split air conditioners which are essentially small heat pumps. They'll be useful not only for the 2 weeks of the year when its boiling hot outside but also in winter especially for situations when only one or two rooms are being used such as late at night. They're a lot more efficient than old style 2Kw fan heaters for example.
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 18:32:09 GMT
Good programme on R4 today in regards to heat pumps... They had on a guy who was an engineer and teacher with regards to these heat pumps... heat pumps in new build? he says its the future. NOW. Heat pumps in existing housing stock. His words not mine... "impossible due to financial cost's and constraints, including archaic planning regulations" Heres an example... cost to prep a house for the viability of a heat pump installation ~£4000...mainly around insulating the property to a standard where there is vertually no heat loss. loft. glazing. draught seals. walls. conservatories (yes..millions of em) Then the cost of the heat pump, the installation, and the long term viable running of the heat pump which would need solar panels to offset the electricity cost..... this blew my mind... £30,000.00..... 15k for the heat pump.... solar panels 10k.. and alterations internally to radiators, hot water supply and pipework 5k.. is this plus vat? Which is clearly not achievable for the vast majority of working people... is there an alternative? ... yes there is.. we have to retain the use of gas and oil and all the benefits we get from it for at least the forseeable future... Another alternative I'm considering is to install wall mounted split air conditioners which are essentially small heat pumps. They'll be useful not only for the 2 weeks of the year when its boiling hot outside but also in winter especially for situations when only one or two rooms are being used such as late at night. They're a lot more efficient than old style 2Kw fan heaters for example.but old 2kw heaters are extremely inefficient ... any idea what the cost of running split air conditioners is? sounds ok to me.
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iano
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Post by iano on May 30, 2023 19:49:01 GMT
I'm assuming you're referring to the one adrianc posted, in which case - Yes, over very very long times the earth's orbit or angle can affect the climate (we are talking along the lines of ice ages here). Additionally as mentioned before, asteroids can smash into it, tectonic plates can slip, mass fires can erupt, aliens can invade, all of which will have either a very long timeframe or an observable reason as to its cause. I asked you what changed heliocentrically in the last 150 years to explain the temperature rise.sun spots.... An increased number of sunspots causes an increase in Earth's temperature.... or is it cars?. Believe me, it would be nice if that were the case but I'm afraid it doesn't fit the facts. While solar activity can have an effect on Earth's temperature and the sun's output regularly fluctuates (part of an on average 11 year cycle), since the late seventies irradiance has actually been on a downward trend. Indeed, going back to 1880 the overall up/down cycle averages out to no net gain or loss. From the mid 20th century however, temperatures increased at a significantly faster rate than usual while at this point solar activity was going downwards. Additionally, temperatures measured in the upper atmosphere would be expected to be comparable when aligned with surface/lower atmospheric temperatures. What we're seeing however is the upper atmosphere having a lower temperature, consistent with heat being trapped closer to the surface. It is however notable that during the part of the last century when the population began to quadruple, energy consumption rose to match and emissions of proven heat trapping compounds increased, the temperature rise seems to track that timing closely.
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 19:52:10 GMT
sun spots.... An increased number of sunspots causes an increase in Earth's temperature.... or is it cars?. Believe me, it would be nice if that were the case but I'm afraid it doesn't fit the facts. While solar activity can have an effect on Earth's temperature and the sun's output regularly fluctuates (part of an on average 11 year cycle), since the late seventies irradiance has actually been on a downward trend. Indeed, going back to 1880 the overall up/down cycle averages out to no net gain or loss. From the mid 20th century however, temperatures increased at a significantly faster rate than usual while at this point solar activity was going downwards. Additionally, temperatures measured in the upper atmosphere would be expected to be comparable when aligned with surface/lower atmospheric temperatures. What we're seeing however is the upper atmosphere having a lower temperature, consistent with heat being trapped closer to the surface. It is however notable that during the part of the last century when the population began to quadruple, energy consumption rose to match and emissions of proven heat trapping compounds increased, the temperature rise seems to track that timing closely. im afraid it does. and it has. you may find this an inconvenient fact... but i disagree with you.
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iano
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Post by iano on May 30, 2023 20:12:26 GMT
Believe me, it would be nice if that were the case but I'm afraid it doesn't fit the facts. While solar activity can have an effect on Earth's temperature and the sun's output regularly fluctuates (part of an on average 11 year cycle), since the late seventies irradiance has actually been on a downward trend. Indeed, going back to 1880 the overall up/down cycle averages out to no net gain or loss. From the mid 20th century however, temperatures increased at a significantly faster rate than usual while at this point solar activity was going downwards. Additionally, temperatures measured in the upper atmosphere would be expected to be comparable when aligned with surface/lower atmospheric temperatures. What we're seeing however is the upper atmosphere having a lower temperature, consistent with heat being trapped closer to the surface. It is however notable that during the part of the last century when the population began to quadruple, energy consumption rose to match and emissions of proven heat trapping compounds increased, the temperature rise seems to track that timing closely. im afraid it does. and it has. you may find this an inconvenient fact... but i disagree with you. Well, you'll have to forgive me for taking NASA's records over yours. climate.nasa.gov/faq/14/is-the-sun-causing-global-warming/
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 20:16:32 GMT
I might also say that in the last century... during the industrial revolution... when co2 was at its highest..and london was a fog.. the thames froze over and people went skating ... indeed there were veg markets held on the frozen ice... a conversation i had recently on R4 was responded "it was because the bridges slowed down the river"
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keitha
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Post by keitha on May 30, 2023 20:22:39 GMT
Good programme on R4 today in regards to heat pumps... They had on a guy who was an engineer and teacher with regards to these heat pumps... heat pumps in new build? he says its the future. NOW. Heat pumps in existing housing stock. His words not mine... "impossible due to financial cost's and constraints, including archaic planning regulations" Heres an example... cost to prep a house for the viability of a heat pump installation ~£4000...mainly around insulating the property to a standard where there is virtually no heat loss. loft. glazing. draught seals. walls. conservatories (yes..millions of em) Then the cost of the heat pump, the installation, and the long term viable running of the heat pump which would need solar panels to offset the electricity cost..... this blew my mind... £30,000.00..... 15k for the heat pump.... solar panels 10k.. and alterations internally to radiators, hot water supply and pipework 5k.. is this plus vat? Which is clearly not achievable for the vast majority of working people... is there an alternative? ... yes there is.. we have to retain the use of gas and oil and all the benefits we get from it for at least the forseeable future... Another issue is you need to run heat pumps long and low ie flow temperatures of 35-45 degrees rather than the 70-80 many run existing boilers at. This means that you don't run a heat pump an hour in the morning and 2 at night. another thing is I'm hearing that people are being charged £250 a year to service a heat pump compared to £100 for a gas boiler.
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 20:30:31 GMT
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 20:33:07 GMT
Good programme on R4 today in regards to heat pumps... They had on a guy who was an engineer and teacher with regards to these heat pumps... heat pumps in new build? he says its the future. NOW. Heat pumps in existing housing stock. His words not mine... "impossible due to financial cost's and constraints, including archaic planning regulations" Heres an example... cost to prep a house for the viability of a heat pump installation ~£4000...mainly around insulating the property to a standard where there is virtually no heat loss. loft. glazing. draught seals. walls. conservatories (yes..millions of em) Then the cost of the heat pump, the installation, and the long term viable running of the heat pump which would need solar panels to offset the electricity cost..... this blew my mind... £30,000.00..... 15k for the heat pump.... solar panels 10k.. and alterations internally to radiators, hot water supply and pipework 5k.. is this plus vat? Which is clearly not achievable for the vast majority of working people... is there an alternative? ... yes there is.. we have to retain the use of gas and oil and all the benefits we get from it for at least the forseeable future... Another issue is you need to run heat pumps long and low ie flow temperatures of 35-45 degrees rather than the 70-80 many run existing boilers at. This means that you don't run a heat pump an hour in the morning and 2 at night. another thing is I'm hearing that people are being charged £250 a year to service a heat pump compared to £100 for a gas boiler. yea.. the reason for solar panels and free electric was that the heat pumps have to run 24/7
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on May 30, 2023 20:42:47 GMT
Another alternative I'm considering is to install wall mounted split air conditioners which are essentially small heat pumps. They'll be useful not only for the 2 weeks of the year when its boiling hot outside but also in winter especially for situations when only one or two rooms are being used such as late at night. They're a lot more efficient than old style 2Kw fan heaters for example.but old 2kw heaters are extremely inefficient ... any idea what the cost of running split air conditioners is? sounds ok to me. They are much less efficient compared to gas or oil for example but just as efficient as anything else that converts electricty _directly_ into heat. Heat pumps as we know are different beasts. I wish I could offer some numbers without needing to read a hundred page technical paper but I can't. Maybe someone else can. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate the latest crop of air con units are bloody good. One guy (lost the link but wasn't in the context of someone trying to convince the reader - more buried in a forum) was said that his unit took around 10 hours to burn through 2KWH which obviously a 2KW old style heater would do in 1 hour. He also seemed to be under the impression that the aircon unit produced more hot air than did his fan heater. His comparison was in the same room with similar temps. Of course it could all be hot air and I may well be about to find out !
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Post by martin44 on May 30, 2023 20:53:01 GMT
but old 2kw heaters are extremely inefficient ... any idea what the cost of running split air conditioners is? sounds ok to me. They are much less efficient compared to gas or oil for example but just as efficient as anything else that converts electricty _directly_ into heat. Heat pumps as we know are different beasts. I wish I could offer some numbers without needing to read a hundred page technical paper but I can't. Maybe someone else can. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate the latest crop of air con units are bloody good. One guy (lost the link but wasn't in the context of someone trying to convince the reader - more buried in a forum) was said that his unit took around 10 hours to burn through 2KWH which obviously a 2KW old style heater would do in 1 hour. He also seemed to be under the impression that the aircon unit produced more hot air than did his fan heater. His comparison was in the same room with similar temps. Of course it could all be hot air and I may well be about to find out ! Many moons ago i lived in a property that had (i think) eco7 hot brick heating....... the bricks were heated up with cheap electric and released heat all day.... im wondering if this could be a future in an ultra insulated building with solar power.
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