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Post by dan1 on May 7, 2019 7:21:33 GMT
There is no etc.etc. You have listed nearly every problematic loan. They are a tiny percentage of total loans and most have not yet completed or even been sold . Barnoltswick “previously confirmed that if we fail to recover all funds due on the property loans with security issues Fundingsecure will stand behind those loans.” Wait until Loans are competed before you try and put them forward as failures to try and make a few actual large losses seem like the norm for all loans rather the the acceptable reduction in return associated with the type of loans offered. These should have minimal effect on balanced portfolios. I probably have funds in all those mentioned and even with no recovery the effect on returns is less than 2% points. Since there is tax offset if not in FISA the effect is even less. If in FISA the fact you save 40% on the interest on every successful loan it amounts to negligible sums and if managed properly this brings tax free returns >12% The chances of 100% loss is also negligible and usually applies to secondary loans so there would be some capital returned eventually boosting overall profit. You still are making money. It may not be as much as you expected but it will not be an overall loss except in cases of single or few loans invested.. If valuations were ludicrously high and final reduced valuations were not the result of negativity impacting actions by the borrowers as in Whitehaven and others or in changing markets as in Formby then I’m sure the appropriate actions against the valuers will be taken. , care to answer the question you ducked when I first posed it a couple of months back? Of your total current FS loan holdings (as listed on the "Sell my investments" page), what percentage by value are "Not available for resale" (whatever the reason)? Don't tell him, Pike!
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Post by Ace on May 7, 2019 7:56:35 GMT
Godanubis , care to answer the question you ducked when I first posed it a couple of months back? Of your total current FS loan holdings (as listed on the "Sell my investments" page), what percentage by value are "Not available for resale" (whatever the reason)? Don't tell him, Pike! We're doomed!
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 7, 2019 9:31:46 GMT
Godanubis , care to answer the question you ducked when I first posed it a couple of months back? Of your total current FS loan holdings (as listed on the "Sell my investments" page), what percentage by value are "Not available for resale" (whatever the reason)? Don't tell him, Pike! Erm, why not? Godanubis is very proud of his success in flipping bulk quantities of FS loanparts via the SM, and still maintains his strategy is wildly profitable. Yet, of the 426 currently "Active" FS loans, only 96 of them are younger than 5 months, so can still be traded on the SM (incidentally, there are now just 58 loans with parts available on the SM). In addition to these 330 "Active" loans that are now too old to sell (some by several years!), there are also 72 "Defaulted" loans, of various vintages back as far as 2015. So either Godanubis has been masterfully astute in keeping his loan holdings within the 96 loans that remain young enough to flip, or else an increasing percentage of his holdings will now (like mine and many others) be locked into the other 402 loans that can no longer be traded and so are reliant on FS's ability to get them repaid / renewed / recovered. Which is it?
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Post by dan1 on May 7, 2019 9:34:30 GMT
Erm, why not? Godanubis is very proud of his success in flipping bulk quantities of FS loanparts via the SM, and still maintains his strategy is wildly profitable. Yet, of the 426 currently "Active" FS loans, only 96 of them are younger than 5 months, so can still be traded on the SM (incidentally, there are now just 58 loans with parts available on the SM). In addition to these 330 "Active" loans that are now too old to sell, there are also 72 "Defaulted" loans, of various vintages back as far as 2015. So either Godanubis has been masterfully astute in keeping his loan holdings within the 96 loans that remain young enough to flip, or else an increasing percentage of his holdings will now (like mine and many others) be locked into the other 402 loans that can no longer be traded and so are reliant on FS's ability to get them repaid / renewed / recovered. Which is it? It was a light-hearted comment 
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on May 7, 2019 9:44:18 GMT
Really - I have just double checked and unless I have been sniffing embalming fluid there are loads of them - If I get time I will draw up a list over the weekend
I thought FS said they would stand behind the cottage rather than the farmhouse?
Please tell me if I am wrong but I make the total due on the Farmhouse as £587 + £188 = £775K and I don't think it is covered? I can foresee 0% being recovered on the second charge and £250K net recovered on the first charge if we are lucky...
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pip
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Post by pip on May 7, 2019 9:45:27 GMT
Godanubis , care to answer the question you ducked when I first posed it a couple of months back? Of your total current FS loan holdings (as listed on the "Sell my investments" page), what percentage by value are "Not available for resale" (whatever the reason)? Don't tell him, Pike! If godanubis has invested as much as he claims, I suspect he is so deep its up to his neck and he just doesn't want to face reality. Like a shareholder who keeps investing as an share price plummets and keeps telling you how much they are making due to the dividend yield being so high on paper. Eventually reality will catch up. Surely there is now a pretty big platform risk here if nothing else, how long can they continue to go on like this?
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on May 7, 2019 12:12:33 GMT
"Surely there is now a pretty big platform risk here if nothing else, how long can they continue to go on like this?"
Indeed..as a few tormented ears and eyes on here will testify, Ive been saying this ad infinitum for erm well...too long. I don't get involved anymore with the verbal tennis on here as its depressing enough with the knowledge of the state of my entire LB but the simple fact is that this situation is not, and has not been sustainable for some considerable time and all that's needed now is a straw and a camel. Will that be the Art Loans I wonder ?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on May 7, 2019 12:54:39 GMT
The new information posted above may well be accurate, but please don't blindly assume it is. One of the first statements in the post is that FS claim they do checks on the individuals involved, but they didn't in this case. It was my understanding that FS were clear that they DON'T do checks on individuals and instead only check the secured asset. If such a simple misunderstanding of the FS business model is at the beginning of the argument then of course we should verify the rest of it too, rather than just agreeing because it suits our own suppositions. From the FS web site, my bold. 'Is it safe? No investment is without risk. However, FundingSecure manages this by restricting the loan to value (LTV) to typically 70%. We do not use the borrowers' credit scores as part of our lending criteria, as we rely on the underlying asset as security. We do, however, perform background checks on our borrowers and rigorous due diligence on ownership and title. In the event of a default, for pawn loans we sell the asset at auction, and for bridging loans we appoint a receiver. Interest continues to accrue until the asset is sold. Despite these measures, your capital does remain at risk. Also please note that your investment is not protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Investors should always review each loan carefully and decide on whether the risk vs reward proposition is acceptable to them.' www.fundingsecure.com/invest-with-us
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on May 7, 2019 19:42:24 GMT
If godanubis has invested as much as he claims, I suspect he is so deep its up to his neck and he just doesn't want to face reality. Like a shareholder who keeps investing as an share price plummets and keeps telling you how much they are making due to the dividend yield being so high on paper. Eventually reality will catch up. Surely there is now a pretty big platform risk here if nothing else, how long can they continue to go on like this? They can go on for a long time see Lendy. I’ve always said that count all loans as 24 months when most are completed on FS I currently have no loans that meet that criteria that have not completed or if partially completed I count as 100% loss. To answer other queries I’ve said I make consistent profit by use of the secondary market. I’ve also said that currently the lack of liquidity in SM meant I have in excess of 8 % uninvested as I don’t exceed my investment limits. I’m happy to have this as it is way less than I have in stock market that fluctuates. FS is not a wonder platform it has many useful points. When SM is fluid then returns are higher or as now they are lower. When large loans payback and those wishing to keep invested buy on SM a large portion of what is on offer is mine. Which I sell at a reasonable discount to the purchaser and small profit to me. If this results in me not having anything in that loan and it still meets my criteria I will buy my limit and offer it for sale again. Nobody is forced to buy my or anyone else’s parts so to portray someone that does it effectively is just sour grapes. This is a capitalist money making exercise fo those wishing a profit. So anyone criticising is just hypocritical. For my philanthropic tendencies I invest into “Lendwithcare.org”. I wish all the borrowers I invest in here were as invested in what they do with my money. It it is not rocket science investing in P2P, all it takes is cash and a willingness to put in a little effort. Dan1 has previously done the statistics for the outcome of having the same amount invested in every loan. (Not something I do but a reasonable indicator) At the time it indicated you would still be in profit despite failures. That is my objective TAX free profit the headline returns only matter if they result in being tax free as otherwise the returns are reduced by 41% (Scotland) or more. A 10% return on £10000 drops to 5.9% after tax. The ability to sell and buy without fees or tax is a massive plus . I am realistic in my expectations as the are evidence based as far as possible and not emotionally charged by my feeling aggrieved at a loss of capital in some of my investments.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 7, 2019 20:45:47 GMT
Can you be a bit more specific on the dates please as that isn't my 2016 notes and it's bugging me. The borrower doesn’t matter just the quality of the security. That is why if you have a bad credit score you either need security or a guarantor for a loan. Ie. Amigo loans. In P2P the item or the property is the security. Disagree. The borrower does matter and very much so. Sure, it's unlikely any borrower is going to have a spotless credit check, but it's not always about the numbers. Knowing who the borrower is in all cases allows would-be investors to a) do their own sniff-test on the borrower's background b) know what other loans the borrower has on the same (or another, see below) platform and how they performed historically c) prevent over exposure to any single borrower, even when everything else checks out One of the several things I'd like FCA to mandate on all FS-like platforms is the clear identification of who the borrower is, and the unambiguous detailing of any current and previous loans. Borrower privacy? Sorry, imo, they forego that privilege when they ask lenders for a loan.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 7, 2019 21:45:51 GMT
If godanubis has invested as much as he claims, I suspect he is so deep its up to his neck and he just doesn't want to face reality. Like a shareholder who keeps investing as an share price plummets and keeps telling you how much they are making due to the dividend yield being so high on paper. Eventually reality will catch up. Surely there is now a pretty big platform risk here if nothing else, how long can they continue to go on like this? They can go on for a long time see Lendy. I’ve always said that count all loans as 24 months when most are completed on FS I currently have no loans that meet that criteria that have not completed or if partially completed I count as 100% loss. To answer other queries I’ve said I make consistent profit by use of the secondary market. I’ve also said that currently the lack of liquidity in SM meant I have in excess of 8 % uninvested as I don’t exceed my investment limits. I’m happy to have this as it is way less than I have in stock market that fluctuates. FS is not a wonder platform it has many useful points. When SM is fluid then returns are higher or as now they are lower. When large loans payback and those wishing to keep invested buy on SM a large portion of what is on offer is mine. Which I sell at a reasonable discount to the purchaser and small profit to me. If this results in me not having anything in that loan and it still meets my criteria I will buy my limit and offer it for sale again. Nobody is forced to buy my or anyone else’s parts so to portray someone that does it effectively is just sour grapes. This is a capitalist money making exercise fo those wishing a profit. So anyone criticising is just hypocritical. For my philanthropic tendencies I invest into “Lendwithcare.org”. I wish all the borrowers I invest in here were as invested in what they do with my money. It it is not rocket science investing in P2P, all it takes is cash and a willingness to put in a little effort. Dan1 has previously done the statistics for the outcome of having the same amount invested in every loan. (Not something I do but a reasonable indicator) At the time it indicated you would still be in profit despite failures. That is my objective TAX free profit the headline returns only matter if they result in being tax free as otherwise the returns are reduced by 41% (Scotland) or more. A 10% return on £10000 drops to 5.9% after tax. The ability to sell and buy without fees or tax is a massive plus . I am realistic in my expectations as the are evidence based as far as possible and not emotionally charged by my feeling aggrieved at a loss of capital in some of my investments. Still ducking the question, so let’s try a 3rd time. You say you have 8% uninvested cash, so 92% must be invested in loans. Of this invested money, what percentage is in SM-tradable loans (up to 5 months old) and what percentage in older loans that you can no longer trade? My guess is probably 50%+ of your FS loan holdings can no longer be flipped, and rising fast. But do tell us the true figure.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on May 7, 2019 23:51:09 GMT
Currently ie. today I sold 25 parts probably 60% of my current investments in FS are less than 30 days they are however still relatively well within my 24 month allowance and were all bought at 18 to>23% so take about a year before the increase % is affected by the possible interest on interest bought deficits .. This is only slightly higher than previous years and reflects the changing markets..
As I mentioned the other factors of FS ie. No income tax and unlimited CGT write off makes the whole platform unique.
If I require funds to buy current loans I merely add more funds at that time as required to be at the top of most of SM loans that are atypical.
That means I supply sufficient money based on SM and PM availability to keep things ticking over the amount invested in each loan varies with cash flow but is maintained at constant % in each varying depending on wither the loan is a candidate for holding or flipping. The individual amount held to maturity is about 10% of that used for flipping so exposure to the riskiest part of holding a loan is minimised. Usually parts held are bought just before the become unavailable and are not part of the selling investment they are 100% sold previously and may not be bought again unless the margins are beneficial.
With the current SM slow down and lack of new loans I have sufficient from sales to maintain poll positions. By quirk of fate it allows me to maintain maximum single investment per loan as selling easier as new investors wishing to dutifully Diversify require loans for their portfolio and I offer a discount. So win all round.
I have no requirement to withdraw funds. I do however like to have my funds increase which they do a little at a time over a long period using the 8th wonder of the world compounding interest this soon becomes a substantial sum. I am nearing 100% ROI on the original sum I allocated. When that happens I may withdraw or transfer out all but my original amount so I am only using the “Free money”
I used to do similar at the casinos. I would play till I made enough for a nice meal then stop. The object there is when I gamble is not to win it is not to loose so you never chase a loss. I have never lost their either. Again it took research luckily casinos provide statistics on roulette that I played and observation of live wheels made the gambling slightly less risky. I never risked more than I could afford to loose and at that time no more than £100
A good card counter has >51% chance of winning that’s why casinos ban them.
I’m lucky enough to enjoy FS without the worry of requiring great liquidity. Overall no loss would be a satisfactory outcome with current interest paid that possibility s remote.
I worked hard to get the money I have and one of the pleasures in life is doing things you enjoy. I have more pleasure than displeasure with FS should that change I will withdraw gracefully and find a new distraction.
I can understand others that may not be in a similar position as myself find themselves worrying about things that they have no control over and get frustrated. Again I have managed to lead a nearly entirely stress free life by being able accept this and not allow things to affect my outlook until there is actual tangible things that can be dealt with.
I would rather be told told that my best friend was in a crash 3 days ago but is now fine than being told 3 day prior that the were in a crash and there is nothing I could do to help. This would just make me feel bad and would add unnecessary stress to me.
Telling me earlier is of no benefit to anyone.
Accept current positions in FS and only allow concrete data with outcomes you can affect make any difference and the whole experience should be positive. If you only feel negative get out and stay out.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on May 8, 2019 0:44:03 GMT
The borrower doesn’t matter just the quality of the security. That is why if you have a bad credit score you either need security or a guarantor for a loan. Ie. Amigo loans. In P2P the item or the property is the security. Disagree. The borrower does matter and very much so. Sure, it's unlikely any borrower is going to have a spotless credit check, but it's not always about the numbers. Knowing who the borrower is in all cases allows would-be investors to a) do their own sniff-test on the borrower's background b) know what other loans the borrower has on the same (or another, see below) platform and how they performed historically c) prevent over exposure to any single borrower, even when everything else checks out One of the several things I'd like FCA to mandate on all FS-like platforms is the clear identification of who the borrower is, and the unambiguous detailing of any current and previous loans. Borrower privacy? Sorry, imo, they forego that privilege when they ask lenders for a loan. If the quality of the asset is good Lucifer himself can be the borrower you know your money is secure. It is the nature of the property sector that asset values are open to interpretation over a wide range. Just watch homes under the hammer and valuations can vary by £100000 on a £400000 property. Also external factors can greatly change things from the start that have nothing to do with the borrower and that is why lending on any amount above the distressed sale values is fraught with risk. That is why even asset backed P2P lending is classed as high risk. You have to accept this and make your own judgment as to what loans you want to invest. With the obvious exceptions of a Garnet and fraudulent art loans and a few toy trains bling is a reasonable investment. That is why FS will stand by failing investments due to current market conditions and hold onto the assets themselves until better conditions prevail. That is why bling attracts a lower return reflecting the reduced risk Do you turn down a 30% LTV loan because the borrower previously did a few bad things ? The choice is yours but that assumes nobody ever reforms and all bad past deeds are their for all to see. I am sure we all have done things that were not typical that would adversely affect our current lives if the were known even though this n no way resembles the person you now are. That is why the actual asset should be the only unbiased thing that should be taken into consideration. Errors in valuations are an entirely different question not associated with the borrower as these are independent and if a problem then the appropriate actions should be taken. The identify of the borrower may be of use in assessing their net worth and likelihood of recovery were something to go wrong with the security held. That however is just an additional comfort as the asset should be sufficient to cover the loan.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 8, 2019 7:02:13 GMT
Currently probably 60% of my current investments in FS are less than 30 days they are however still relatively well within my 24 month allowance and were all bought at 18 to>23% so take about a year before the increase % is affected by the possible interest on interest bought deficits OK, so cutting through the waffle, 60% of your current loan holdings are now too old to be traded and you're locked in until FS manage to renew / repay / recover them. Welcome to the world of FS zombie loans!! I wonder if you'll still be as sanguine about FS in 6 months' time, when that figure will have risen to 80%+ even if you carry on reinvesting loans that do repay, and 100% if you don't. I see you're already considering withdrawing all but your accumulated profit to date, so the penny is clearly starting to drop that your past FS flipping strategy is a busted flush.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on May 8, 2019 8:39:39 GMT
The object there is when I gamble is not to win it is not to loose (lose!)so you never chase a loss. I have never lost their either.
I agree investment is about minimising losses rather than maximising gains without due care but sadly at least some, if not a lot, of FS investor are going to take a massive hit. Even Warren Buffet makes bad mistakes e.g. Tesco but he is only worth about $90 billion so he is clearly rubbish compared to this chap! The phrase when in a hole ... comes to mind
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