michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 11, 2020 16:59:42 GMT
I'm glad you put added this but to me its almost worse. I guess a bloke delivering meals is pretty bad and that is why the magistrate no doubt took a dim view but I agree it is _utterly_ disproportionate IMO but sentencing policy is another subject and one I subjectively think judges/magistrates frequently get badly wrong. Anyway. back to the subject.... Its also bad because nobody is aware of the possibility of going to jail. Is it just an IOM thing? I for example had assumed there was a fixed penalty system in operation. Punishment wise that probably about right up there with speeding etc but it needs to be enforced as speeding fines are. Doing virtually nothing to enforce and then stringing up some poor bloke with a russian sounding name to set an example is the worst of all worlds. But there is speeding and potentially killing someone when speeding, delivering meals to people who may be at high risk from Covid, when you have been told to self isolate is just so stupid and reckless it deserves more that a slap on the wrist. Don't mess with the Isle of Man they are independent from the UK. If some random person approached me, punched me in the face for no reason and knocked me out then stole my wallet and phone leaving me lying on the payment it is unlikely he would serve 8 weeks in prison for a first offence.
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Sept 11, 2020 17:42:20 GMT
Its also bad because nobody is aware of the possibility of going to jail. Is it just an IOM thing? I for example had assumed there was a fixed penalty system in operation. Punishment wise that probably about right up there with speeding etc but it needs to be enforced as speeding fines are. There is no possibility of going to jail in the UK, the law does not allow for it. You can be detained but not sentenced to prison. IOM is totally different - they decide their own [covid] laws, I think the point of the OP was just to contrast the laws of another jurisdiction.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Sept 11, 2020 19:19:26 GMT
Perhaps he could've chosen to be birched instead.
Others have been jailed for covid offences on IOM.
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Post by dan1 on Sept 11, 2020 19:37:58 GMT
Does anyone have experience of how difficult it is to get home delivery slots from Supermakets. Think I just got lucky with getting a spot with Waitrose for Monday, must have been a cancellation. Very difficult and yes, it sounds like you got lucky. I guess that several of the users on here who wrote bots to trade on P2P platform markets have now turned their attentions to securing food delivery slots. If I had the ability I'd consider it myself!Forget food delivery slots, can someone please write me a bot to get a *****ing test
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Sept 11, 2020 20:10:09 GMT
But there is speeding and potentially killing someone when speeding, delivering meals to people who may be at high risk from Covid, when you have been told to self isolate is just so stupid and reckless it deserves more that a slap on the wrist. Don't mess with the Isle of Man they are independent from the UK. If some random person approached me, punched me in the face for no reason and knocked me out then stole my wallet and phone leaving me lying on the payment it is unlikely he would serve 8 weeks in prison for a first offence. I don't know what the penalty would be in IoM, they have their own laws. But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. Someone knowing they should not be interacting with vulnerable people because they are meant to be in quarantine, but delivering food is just so wrong, and there were probably multiple offences as he probably delivered to lots of customers. Thumbs up for IoM from me.
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Sept 11, 2020 20:21:18 GMT
But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. What would you say the maximum probability of being covid-positive should be before one is allowed to deliver food? That's a serious question - unless you've had it before and can be shown to be immune we all "could be positive" - what's the threshold for unacceptable risk?
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slippery
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Post by slippery on Sept 11, 2020 20:37:37 GMT
Just for contrast: " A 50-year-old man has been jailed for eight weeks after failing to self-isolate upon returning to the Isle of Man.
Ivan Vasilev Dimitrov started delivering meals from the Siam Orchid restaurant in Douglas on 6th September, despite returning to the Isle of Man on 3rd September.
At the time, the Isle of Man had a 14-day self-isolation policy where anyone who arrived on the Island was required to quarantine for two weeks to prevent the spread of coronavirus.
That has now been reduced to seven days isolation, followed by a test." 8 weeks is a bit draconian (no evidence that he actually HAS infected anyone). But sentencing obvious rule-breakers does help send a clear warning. I'm glad you put added this but to me its almost worse. I guess a bloke delivering meals is pretty bad and that is why the magistrate no doubt took a dim view but I agree it is _utterly_ disproportionate IMO but sentencing policy is another subject and one I subjectively think judges/magistrates frequently get badly wrong. Anyway. back to the subject.... Its also bad because nobody is aware of the possibility of going to jail. Is it just an IOM thing? I for example had assumed there was a fixed penalty system in operation. Punishment wise that probably about right up there with speeding etc but it needs to be enforced as speeding fines are. Doing virtually nothing to enforce and then stringing up some poor bloke with a russian sounding name to set an example is the worst of all worlds. Yes, IOM, Jersey & Guernsey each have different regs. Nothing to do with his having a foreign name, others have been jailed and therefore effectively forced to do the 14 day isolation. But .... no idea why his sentence was so much longer. Because there has been no "community transmission" for ages in IOM or Guernsey people can freely visit elderly relatives, nursing homes etc so if someone did arrive unknowingly carrying the virus then spread it around it would probably rip through the community much quicker than in countries where there are still day to day restrictions. I'm not in the vulnerable category myself but have many friends who are and so I do appreciate the freedom we are lucky enough to have due to the stricter border controls. But 8 weeks seems harsh - unless he does actually have the virus and knowingly put others at risk. (I'm on the IOM)
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 11, 2020 20:49:14 GMT
But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. What would you say the maximum probability of being covid-positive should be before one is allowed to deliver food? That's a serious question - unless you've had it before and can be shown to be immune we all "could be positive" - what's the threshold for unacceptable risk? It might be a serious question, but its not a very sensible one. You have to have testable criteria. Falling into a category of "you are required to isolate/quarnatine for x days" is a testable critieria. One would assume or hope that that sitting behind that is some 'probability' calculation that is driving rules. But a bit non-sensical to assume that a set of 'by individual person' probabilities could be used as a practical 'test'. Going out and engaging with a large number of people when you are meant to be isolating is reckless and selfish, as well as unlawful. Doing so when the sample of the population you are visiting is likely to be weighted to those who are particularly vulnerable - in percentage terms compared to the general population - because they are particularly likely to be seeking 'to the door delivery' to reduce their risks , I would suggest falls into the reckless, selfish, stupid, unethical, endangering other's life, category. While also being a total breach of trust. Is the punishment right ? Well its better than a £100 fine. Too harsh ? Maybe. Ridiculously too hard i.e. should have had no custodial sentence ? Possibly not.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 11, 2020 21:46:34 GMT
If some random person approached me, punched me in the face for no reason and knocked me out then stole my wallet and phone leaving me lying on the payment it is unlikely he would serve 8 weeks in prison for a first offence. I don't know what the penalty would be in IoM, they have their own laws. But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. Someone knowing they should not be interacting with vulnerable people because they are meant to be in quarantine, but delivering food is just so wrong, and there were probably multiple offences as he probably delivered to lots of customers. Thumbs up for IoM from me. Seems to me its like speeding or at a push drink driving. Neither of which usually carry a prison sentence but both of which have potential to kill your granny.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Sept 12, 2020 8:57:47 GMT
I don't know what the penalty would be in IoM, they have their own laws. But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. Someone knowing they should not be interacting with vulnerable people because they are meant to be in quarantine, but delivering food is just so wrong, and there were probably multiple offences as he probably delivered to lots of customers. Thumbs up for IoM from me. Seems to me its like speeding or at a push drink driving. Neither of which usually carry a prison sentence but both of which have potential to kill your granny. If you kill somebody through drink driving then you can end up in jail.
Big difference is that speeding and drink driving are not contagious.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Sept 12, 2020 19:36:53 GMT
But if someone killed your granny by infecting her with Covid while delivering her dinner when he knew he could be positive for Covid, I would hope they would throw away the key. What would you say the maximum probability of being covid-positive should be before one is allowed to deliver food? That's a serious question - unless you've had it before and can be shown to be immune we all "could be positive" - what's the threshold for unacceptable risk? At least don't do it while you are meant to be quarantined for it!
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Post by dan1 on Sept 17, 2020 7:53:13 GMT
Anthony Costello is a well respected figure within Global Health....
You have to wonder what the point of a two-week lockdown in isolation (pun intended) would achieve. Surely, we need to reach a steady state where restrictions can remain stable while stopping the infection rate from getting out of control.
It was obvious we'd be in the position we find ourselves. Doing away with social distancing (1m+ did just that), opening up everything (including encouraging people to gather indoors - help out to catch the virus), sending kids & uni students back full time, and all in the presence of a glorious end to the summer with dry hot weather (the like of which I can't recall). What did they expect?
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad on Sept 17, 2020 8:03:57 GMT
Costello has since tweeted "I've been told by another insider I respect that Chris Whitty does not support a 2 week lockdown, so I'm pleased to correct the record."
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Post by dan1 on Sept 17, 2020 8:17:13 GMT
Costello has since tweeted "I've been told by another insider I respect that Chris Whitty does not support a 2 week lockdown, so I'm pleased to correct the record." It's interesting in the context of this FOI request in which Whitty, CMO, gave Vallance, CSO (i.e. Whitty's boss??) a "telling off" for arguing for the initial lockdown... The fact remains, the rate of infection is increasing and the limited measures to date seem to have had little impact so what will happen next?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 17, 2020 9:16:03 GMT
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