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Post by Ace on Mar 16, 2020 9:53:23 GMT
I really don't understand why people say that it's "fair" for AC to unilaterally change the Ts&Cs. The only "fair" thing is to abide by the terms that people signed up to, and were explicitly explained by the extant top executives in the company very recently, which convered the exact situation we are now in.
What's the point of Ts&Cs if they can be changed on a whim?
How can it be "fair" that people who abided by the rules and, under the agreed terms, are due to get their cash back in the next few days (not me by the way), will now need to wait an unknown length of time?
P2P carries risks. Not being able to access one's funds is one of those risks. I have great sympathy for those that didn't fully understand the terms and have been foolish enough to put cash that they require now in an account that didn't guarantee that access, but the new "terms" are unlikely to help as they may only receive dribs and drabs of the needed cash in time. It won't help those that need the whole pot back for a house purchase for example.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the new terms, or that they are any better or worse than the old terms. It's just that they are not the terms that have been explained and agreed to, and which people should be able to rely on. It would be fine for AC to announce that they were going to change to the new system once all those that wished to exit under the agreed system had done so.
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cb25
Posts: 3,528 
Likes: 2,668
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Post by cb25 on Mar 16, 2020 9:54:56 GMT
What it means is that the rate at which money in access accounts can be retrieved is going to be glacial and possibly as slow and as useless as MLA. I’ve stuck with QAA for the last few months happy to sacrifice a considerable amount of interest for the expected liquidity. I certainly expected to be able to get my cash faster than the 30 or 90 day accounts. I even expected to be able to get my cash at the expense of the other access accounts. But now, once again, AC are re-writing history and the rules. They want to shunt my cash into another broken account with loans that will likely fester for ten years, adding complexity to every tax return and wrecking any kind of estate planning. Never again. AC are worse than the the worse platform round here because they pretend they are something special, something different. They are not. They are just focused on the IPO that will never come. Once I saw the blog post, I did suspect these accounts have materially changed. If so, the access accounts would be the new GBBA/GEIA, but instead of different investors being unevenly screwed by bad diversification, we all are evenly screwed by the pooled suspended/defaulted loads! It remains to be seen how the queue will "feel" and whether there is any movement at all due to new money.
AC could lose a lot of end 19-20 and early 20-21 ISA deposits if the queue is quite off-putting. Why put money into AC into QAA if the "quick" is already weeks of queueing.
I'm also interested to know how the 'pool' concept fits with 30DAA/90DAA withdrawal requests that were already in the pipeline. For example, I've got 30DAA requests that were due out on/after 13 Mar. Are they now ranked equally and pro-rata'd with withdrawal requests made when the system re-opens?
Edit: just received my Withdraw Funds request (cash a/c to bank a/c) from last Wed afternoon (11th March). Money is in the bank!  . Tagging locutus iRobot lobster Mikeme r00lish67
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SteveT
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,875
Likes: 7,924
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Post by SteveT on Mar 16, 2020 10:11:26 GMT
I really don't understand why people say that it's "fair" for AC to unilaterally change the Ts&Cs. The only "fair" thing is to abide by the terms that people signed up to, and were explicitly explained by the extant top executives in the company very recently, which convered the exact situation we are now in. What's the point of Ts&Cs if they can be changed on a whim? How can it be "fair" that people who abided by the rules and, under the agreed terms, are due to get their cash back in the next few days (not me by the way), will now need to wait an unknown length of time? P2P carries risks. Not being able to access one's funds is one of those risks. I have great sympathy for those that didn't fully understand the terms and have been foolish enough to put cash that they require now in an account that didn't guarantee that access, but the new "terms" are unlikely to help as they may only receive dribs and drabs of the needed cash in time. It won't help those that need the whole pot back for a house purchase for example. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the new terms, or that they are any better or worse than the old terms. It's just that they are not the terms that have been explained and agreed to, and which people should be able to rely on. It would be fine for AC to announce that they were going to change to the new system once all those that wished to exit under the agreed system had done so. ”20. Altered Circumstances and Changes to The Terms If there is a change in circumstances or a change in the law, HM Revenue & Customs practice or regulations or the interpretation of them, or if any Assetz Capital Company wishes to make changes to the services which it provides on the Network or Website, the Assetz Capital Companies may amend these Terms from time to time as they think fit. Where a change to these Terms does not affect existing Micro Loans and does not disadvantage existing Lending Members or where the changes are reasonably believed by the Assetz Capital Companies to be in the interests of the Lending Members, the Assetz Capital Companies may make any amendments to these Terms at any time with immediate effect. Where it is necessary or desirable to make changes to these Terms which affect existing Micro Loans or may disadvantage existing Lending Members, the Assetz Capital Companies will endeavour to provide 30 days notice before any changes take effect. Any such notice shall be posted on the Website.” Clearly giving 30 days notice is unrealistic in the event of a run, and not in the interests of Lending Members as a whole
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TitoPuente
Member of DD Central
Posts: 624
Likes: 655
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Post by TitoPuente on Mar 16, 2020 10:12:11 GMT
What it means is that the rate at which money in access accounts can be retrieved is going to be glacial and possibly as slow and as useless as MLA. I’ve stuck with QAA for the last few months happy to sacrifice a considerable amount of interest for the expected liquidity. I certainly expected to be able to get my cash faster than the 30 or 90 day accounts. I even expected to be able to get my cash at the expense of the other access accounts. But now, once again, AC are re-writing history and the rules. They want to shunt my cash into another broken account with loans that will likely fester for ten years, adding complexity to every tax return and wrecking any kind of estate planning. Never again. AC are worse than the the worse platform round here because they pretend they are something special, something different. They are not. They are just focused on the IPO that will never come. Reading between the lines I can guess that you have a room full of toilet paper that will last for the next 5 years! Jokes aside, everyone is free to deal with their own panic, but it is not civilised to vent extreme opinions this way. AC seem to be acting with a lot of common sense given the circumstances.
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dovap
Member of DD Central
Posts: 467
Likes: 410
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Post by dovap on Mar 16, 2020 11:32:22 GMT
I really don't understand why people say that it's "fair" for AC to unilaterally change the Ts&Cs. The only "fair" thing is to abide by the terms that people signed up to, and were explicitly explained by the extant top executives in the company very recently, which convered the exact situation we are now in. What's the point of Ts&Cs if they can be changed on a whim? How can it be "fair" that people who abided by the rules and, under the agreed terms, are due to get their cash back in the next few days (not me by the way), will now need to wait an unknown length of time? P2P carries risks. Not being able to access one's funds is one of those risks. I have great sympathy for those that didn't fully understand the terms and have been foolish enough to put cash that they require now in an account that didn't guarantee that access, but the new "terms" are unlikely to help as they may only receive dribs and drabs of the needed cash in time. It won't help those that need the whole pot back for a house purchase for example. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the new terms, or that they are any better or worse than the old terms. It's just that they are not the terms that have been explained and agreed to, and which people should be able to rely on. It would be fine for AC to announce that they were going to change to the new system once all those that wished to exit under the agreed system had done so. ”20. Altered Circumstances and Changes to The Terms If there is a change in circumstances or a change in the law, HM Revenue & Customs practice or regulations or the interpretation of them, or if any Assetz Capital Company wishes to make changes to the services which it provides on the Network or Website, the Assetz Capital Companies may amend these Terms from time to time as they think fit. Where a change to these Terms does not affect existing Micro Loans and does not disadvantage existing Lending Members or where the changes are reasonably believed by the Assetz Capital Companies to be in the interests of the Lending Members, the Assetz Capital Companies may make any amendments to these Terms at any time with immediate effect. Where it is necessary or desirable to make changes to these Terms which affect existing Micro Loans or may disadvantage existing Lending Members, the Assetz Capital Companies will endeavour to provide 30 days notice before any changes take effect. Any such notice shall be posted on the Website.” Clearly giving 30 days notice is unrealistic in the event of a run, and not in the interests of Lending Members as a whole don't you love these catch all FU clauses
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Post by Harland Kearney on Mar 16, 2020 12:37:11 GMT
Unfortunately, I did take the QAA interest rate over the 90 DAA on the assumption I'd be at the front of the que, hence the lower interest rate.
Sorta pointless that was.
Once I get funds back, if I get them back at this point. I will likely rethink my exposure to AC.
I am hoping AC system is smarter than we are all speaking about here, that it is actually to create a liquidty guideline for all customers. (Say data shows it take to get your cash back in 7 days in full) and it drip feed into cash account at that speed. That would be a good a system and I can see it working to keep the site from a pure panic.
But if it cant', and we are only seeing 1% a day, prepare for pure panic. This bear market on the stock market isnt' going away by ISA season, anybody thinking that ISA season will resolve this problem is going to be rudely awaken.
Fiscal policy cannot fix a medical crisis.
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sapphire
Member of DD Central
Posts: 489
Likes: 413
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Post by sapphire on Mar 16, 2020 12:42:15 GMT
Amongst those who had invested directly in QAA (rather than sweeping funds from Cash & MLA) and have now used the "Withdraw" option in the QAA panel, does the "Queued withdrawals" option in this panel correctly display the withdrawal amount?
Also, does the "Queue Position" option display a value?
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Post by gothteteeshirt on Mar 16, 2020 15:55:15 GMT
Keep reading the update and have to say a points need clarifying
1) Will you have to request an immediate transfer withdrawal from QAA to Cash account and then subsequently request an actual bank withdrawal as you did in normal market conditions?
2) Presumably you will have to switch off 'invest idle funds' as otherwise the system will still assume you are in QAA even though you are showing in Cash account and effectively you go to back of queue?
3) Whilst sitting in Cash account with invest idle funds switched off then presumably the interest on residual funds that cannot be met on a daily basis will be going to whom?
4) Will the system automatically pay you daily a proportion of the initial withdrawal request in line with what is received in until such time that your initial withdrawal request is ultimately met?.
5) There are 10000+ investors in AC and all seem to have investments in QAA. If on the opening bell whenever that is will they indicate how long the actual finance processing time will be (currently upto 2 working days) in addition to the then actual withdrawal time based on anticipated incoming funds? Clearly, a potential 10000+ bank withdrawal requests (although unlikely) will with various security checks that are apparently carried out will be disproportionate workload to what the finance team have historically addressed on a daily basis?
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Post by davee39 on Mar 16, 2020 16:10:05 GMT
Keep reading the update and have to say a points need clarifying 1) Will you have to request an immediate transfer withdrawal from QAA to Cash account and then subsequently request an actual bank withdrawal as you did in normal market conditions? 2) Presumably you will have to switch off 'invest idle funds' as otherwise the system will still assume you are in QAA even though you are showing in Cash account and effectively you go to back of queue? 3) Whilst sitting in Cash account with invest idle funds switched off then presumably the interest on residual funds that cannot be met on a daily basis will be going to whom? 4) Will the system automatically pay you daily a proportion of the initial withdrawal request in line with what is received in until such time that your initial withdrawal request is ultimately met?. 5) There are 10000+ investors in AC and all seem to have investments in QAA. If on the opening bell whenever that is will they indicate how long the actual finance processing time will be (currently upto 2 working days) in addition to the then actual withdrawal time based on anticipated incoming funds? Clearly, a potential 10000+ bank withdrawal requests (although unlikely) will with various security checks that are apparently carried out will be disproportionate workload to what the finance team have historically addressed on a daily basis? 1) Withdrawals will end up in cash a/c. You will have to request a cash out. 2) Yes 3) Obviously cash in the cash account will not earn interest. 4) Sort of. The payments may not be daily but may be made periodically as cash builds up. 5) I would hope people would show some common sense (Sadly lacking currently across the entire population). If everyone tries to draw out pennies whenever they arise the system would grind to a halt. Assetz might impose a minimum withdrawal amount but it would make sense to allow cash to accrue and withdraw periodically. £1000 would only earn 2.7p daily at 1% interest. Assetz cannot pay interest on the Cash a/c - they would need a banking licence - hence the sweep option to get round that.
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Post by Harland Kearney on Mar 16, 2020 16:21:19 GMT
Nobody is quite sure how they intend on releasing funds from the access account. However I imagine its going to done though a good system that will ensure lenders get all liquid that can be released as soon as possible. I personally hope they don't do it as some sort of *only once a week* type deal, as that isn't very assetz Capital like honestly. I can see chris and the team creating a on the go system that will be able release cash that is free beyond a certain set limit.
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Post by brightspark on Mar 16, 2020 17:41:13 GMT
Keep reading the update and have to say a points need clarifying 1) Will you have to request an immediate transfer withdrawal from QAA to Cash account and then subsequently request an actual bank withdrawal as you did in normal market conditions? 2) Presumably you will have to switch off 'invest idle funds' as otherwise the system will still assume you are in QAA even though you are showing in Cash account and effectively you go to back of queue? 3) Whilst sitting in Cash account with invest idle funds switched off then presumably the interest on residual funds that cannot be met on a daily basis will be going to whom? 4) Will the system automatically pay you daily a proportion of the initial withdrawal request in line with what is received in until such time that your initial withdrawal request is ultimately met?. 5) There are 10000+ investors in AC and all seem to have investments in QAA. If on the opening bell whenever that is will they indicate how long the actual finance processing time will be (currently upto 2 working days) in addition to the then actual withdrawal time based on anticipated incoming funds? Clearly, a potential 10000+ bank withdrawal requests (although unlikely) will with various security checks that are apparently carried out will be disproportionate workload to what the finance team have historically addressed on a daily basis? Re point 2 when "invest idle funds" is switched on any surplus funds showing in the MLA account is also treated by the system as being in QAA. To be invested in loans "invest idle funds' must be switched off and the funds then join the QAA queue before release to the cash account for investment via MLA.
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Post by investor01010101 on Mar 16, 2020 20:50:53 GMT
Amongst those who had invested directly in QAA (rather than sweeping funds from Cash & MLA) and have now used the "Withdraw" option in the QAA panel, does the "Queued withdrawals" option in this panel correctly display the withdrawal amount? Also, does the "Queue Position" option display a value? No because ALL withdrawals are stopped, there is no way AC are going to let anyone take money out now. The 'Queue' does not exist.
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Post by davee39 on Mar 16, 2020 21:11:21 GMT
Amongst those who had invested directly in QAA (rather than sweeping funds from Cash & MLA) and have now used the "Withdraw" option in the QAA panel, does the "Queued withdrawals" option in this panel correctly display the withdrawal amount? Also, does the "Queue Position" option display a value? No because ALL withdrawals are stopped, there is no way AC are going to let anyone take money out now. The 'Queue' does not exist. Sometimes it helps to take an informed view when posting. There is a queue of funds waiting to be withdrawn. No funds are currently being applied to the queue Assetz expect to be able to start making pro-rata payments on withdrawal requests on Thursday. The above is taken from the recently posted FAQ. Yes, I too have panicked and asked to draw out my funds, but I was aware of the risks before I invested & I am not making ill informed comments about an unprecedented and unexpected crisis.
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Post by Harland Kearney on Mar 16, 2020 21:19:32 GMT
The size of the QAA Total account investment has increased during the period that they have been locked still. Albeit that a large chunk has been from a repaid loan in the GBBA one (alot of funds got swept in it looks like). At the start of the lock I noted the QAA at £61,950,000? Around this number I cannot be certain so forgive me, it is now £62,670,039 as of posting. A increase has been seen in the other accounts too. People are still investing and providing liquidity in the site, my theory is that when withdrawals are allowed, it may further increase liquidity as swept funds can be used for investment and people maybe more confident knowing that the system is online. I cant' say I will be investing any new funds at this time, I will however be leaving some of my funds invested in my ISA. I can understands people panic and frustration, but please do not post misleading comments or panic mongering. Backed up critisim sure, I'm not exactly thrilled with this prospect, and like other posters this has certainly led me to want to reduce P2P exposure. However, I made the decision to invest here as did all other posters. Thats how it goes, lets see what AC come up with and go from there. The FAQ page is ofc posted as of last night, so we can only discuss whats provided to us from there. Many investors view this page, and we dont' want mis-information spreading about AC. I personally feel AC are not as bad as people are making out here. A shock has been felt though nearly all forms of investment provisions, and similar setups are being seen on other P2P sites. Lets see how the "pool" goes, and how all that will feel. Personally, if they have made a pool, it means they dont' feel a massive *everyone pile on top* que is going to work out or favour the platforms short or long term health. I can agree on this, even though I should be right at the front of que, being somebody who clicked in 4 minutes; I can see why investors in the 90DAA would likely panic and withdraw to make sure they get in there, causing a crisis on the platform far bigger than a longer than expected withdrawl times that we are seeing currently. We can only see how it plays out, I look forward to seeing it operational on Thursday, hopefully this deadline is met or we will see hell on this forum; thats for sure  |
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Mikeme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 428
Likes: 331
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Post by Mikeme on Mar 16, 2020 21:21:42 GMT
Deleted
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. Tagging 
