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Post by captainconfident on Nov 8, 2021 19:44:37 GMT
The "Facts4eu" site is just the one-man operation of an ex-city banker called Leigh Evans. He makes money now by churning out distorted counter-truths for right wing news outlets who are short of good news. Castex was actually seeking to demonstrate the damage that can result from leaving the EU. He was not calling for the UK to be damaged because of Brexit. This was a standard EU line throughout the Brexit deal negotiations, that countries outside the bloc could not have the same advantages as member states. All references to the UK being "punished" by the EU are a wilful distortion of the truth being used by mendacious journalists and politicians to stir up their remaining supporters, the ones who are so committed to Brexit that they no longer care to check facts.
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Post by bernythedolt on Nov 8, 2021 21:17:04 GMT
The "Facts4eu" site is just the one-man operation of an ex-city banker called Leigh Evans. He makes money now by churning out distorted counter-truths for right wing news outlets who are short of good news. Castex was actually seeking to demonstrate the damage that can result from leaving the EU. He was not calling for the UK to be damaged because of Brexit. This was a standard EU line throughout the Brexit deal negotiations, that countries outside the bloc could not have the same advantages as member states. All references to the UK being "punished" by the EU are a wilful distortion of the truth being used by mendacious journalists and politicians to stir up their remaining supporters, the ones who are so committed to Brexit that they no longer care to check facts. Tosh. The meaning of "It is essential to make clear to European public opinion that [...] leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it” is perfectly clear to me. You're free to dress it up as something that fits your own narrative if you like though.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 8, 2021 22:26:50 GMT
seriously worried when Berny and I agree ...
It's like the French fishermen complaining about not being given licences, because their GPS responders don't show them habitually fishing in those areas.
Because their responders were off, why because they were fishing illegally
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 8, 2021 22:28:59 GMT
I'm going to try to break that down. Part 1. "It is essential to make clear to European public opinion that compliance with the commitments entered into is non-negotiable". Imho a) "compliance with commitments entered into is non-negotiable" is supportive of international law (rather than threatening to flagrantly breach it), simple good sense, polite, respectful of all involved parties and, lastly, sending a message to those inside the EU that no, they are not going to allow anybody to leg them over. All of which seems entirely reasonable to me. Part 2. ".... and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it.” We have a club, we don't want anybody to leave it, and to reinforce that we are willing to demonstrate that leaving it comes at a cost that is greater than staying within it. Which seems entirely reasonable to me. Now you may not like that, you might disagree with it, but you cannot argue that there is no reasonable rationale there. No? The UK are NOT the only variables in this equation. And the EU is perfectly ENTITLED to take a position that is at odds with the wishes of the UK. bernythedolt, what have I got wrong?
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Post by bernythedolt on Nov 9, 2021 0:34:57 GMT
I'm going to try to break that down. Part 1. "It is essential to make clear to European public opinion that compliance with the commitments entered into is non-negotiable". Imho a) "compliance with commitments entered into is non-negotiable" is supportive of international law (rather than threatening to flagrantly breach it), simple good sense, polite, respectful of all involved parties and, lastly, sending a message to those inside the EU that no, they are not going to allow anybody to leg them over. All of which seems entirely reasonable to me. Part 2. ".... and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it.” We have a club, we don't want anybody to leave it, and to reinforce that we are willing to demonstrate that leaving it comes at a cost that is greater than staying within it. Which seems entirely reasonable to me. Now you may not like that, you might disagree with it, but you cannot argue that there is no reasonable rationale there. No? The UK are NOT the only variables in this equation. And the EU is perfectly ENTITLED to take a position that is at odds with the wishes of the UK. bernythedolt , what have I got wrong? for starters. "It is essential to make clear" is far more provocative than merely being willing to do something. In any case, this is hardly the language of diplomacy one might expect between allies and trading partners with a gentlemanly agreement to use all best endeavours to resolve these difficulties. We have to bear in mind the background, which was France trying to strong-arm the UK into handing over additional fishing licences, and trying to whip the EU into supporting them, when they are on very flaky ground and the EU knows it. In that context, it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines. He may as well have written, "We have to stick together, whatever that's going to take: back us on the fishing licences that we can't get by legitimate means and together we'll hit the UK below the belt". In the context of the fishing licences, his incendiary Part 2 phrase above was completely unnecessary... it didn't need saying at all... but its inclusion speaks volumes about the current French mindset towards the UK (as if we needed any further reminder...). Any Leave waverers out there have no doubt had their convictions further reinforced by this episode.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 9, 2021 6:25:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2021 7:49:23 GMT
In any case, this is hardly the language of diplomacy one might expect between allies and trading partners with a gentlemanly agreement to use all best endeavours to resolve these difficulties. That is hilarious. A gentlemanly agreement? With these lying clowns in charge of the UK?  Language of diplomacy? When the ERG knuckledraggers openly threatened to sabotage the EU from within? No wonder BoJos corrupt government thinks it can get away with anything, when Brexiteer zealots are so wilfully blind to their behaviour.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 9, 2021 10:01:39 GMT
Personally, what really turned me against remain was the attitude of some that anyone who voted leave had to be thick. If you're using "thick" as a shorthand for educational attainment, then it seems to be a demonstrable fact. blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/11/04/would-a-more-educated-population-have-rejected-brexit/ Which publications are you thinking of, and how are they more "comic" than the Mail, Express, Sun...? Remember "Project Fear"? Seems to be pretty much proven by now. Remember the government's own worst-case predictions, "Operation Yellowhammer"?  Again, pretty much all have been ticked off... "This might not have be the brexit you voted for, but it's the one I voted against."
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 9, 2021 10:06:09 GMT
Language of diplomacy? When the ERG knuckledraggers openly threatened to sabotage the EU from within? Not just threatened. It was the stated aim of the one third of British MEPs who came from UKIP...
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 9, 2021 10:11:37 GMT
adriancby "comics" I was referring to the Likes of Nish Kumar, Russel Howard et al
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 9, 2021 11:00:39 GMT
Personally, what really turned me against remain was the attitude of some that anyone who voted leave had to be thick. If you're using "thick" as a shorthand for educational attainment, then it seems to be a demonstrable fact. blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/11/04/would-a-more-educated-population-have-rejected-brexit/Which publications are you thinking of, and how are they more "comic" than the Mail, Express, Sun...? Remember "Project Fear"? Seems to be pretty much proven by now. Remember the government's own worst-case predictions, "Operation Yellowhammer"? Again, pretty much all have been ticked off... "This might not have be the brexit you voted for, but it's the one I voted against."
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 9, 2021 11:38:27 GMT
I voted against Covid.... You must be really hacked off at this government's utter mismanagement of it, then. Worst thing is, it allows them to pretend things are the fault of Covid rather than Brexit. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59070020
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Nov 9, 2021 11:41:07 GMT
The graph relates to western Europe not the UK in particular and from the linked LSE report: "...we do not find conclusive evidence for a causal relationship between education and Euroscepticism".
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 9, 2021 11:45:16 GMT
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Nov 9, 2021 13:16:54 GMT
How many people were asked how they voted in the exit poll? And how many refused to say how they voted? And what was the ratio of more or less educated in the ones who refused? I have only been asked how I voted in an election once, many years ago, and then I declined to answer. I don't understand why people would tell some stranger in the street details about their age, educational history and who knows what else.
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